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  • Argistarts Italian Honey (Lattarula) – Is it or is it Not?

    For starters, thank you to some of the wonderful members here who have taken the time to post about this subject centered around Argistarts. It has definitely helped me out, but I have failed to read anything here that can explain exactly what I have. I know my Conadria was mislabeled and I actually got a Hardy Chicago instead. I know others purchased a White Marseilles and actually got a Tena instead. The Agristarts website pictures the correct variety for Ficus carica 'Lattarula', but I do not see the resembles of this tree with the 2 I have purchased. Other than a green fig skin, the inside of the fig and the shape of the leaf doesn't match.

    My Argistarts Italian Honey (Lattarula) was purchased from Hirt’s about 5 years ago and the second from Wellsprings in 2020. By the shape of the leaf, I think that I definitely do not have Italian Honey aka Lattarula. I haven’t gotten an eatable fig out of my tree yet, but I’m already set for disappointment (again) as I'm thinking the inside will be pinkish, amber color like some others have gotten instead of the greenish to white interior. I can see why this has been a confusing topic for some, including me!

    Here’s everything I’ve found on the topic:
    https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-h...here-it-stands
    https://www.agristarts.com/index.cfm...D/45/index.htm
    https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-h...-lattarula-fig
    https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-h...seilles-plants
    https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-h...la-fig-tasting

    Here’s my trees:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2095.jpg Views:	2 Size:	143.3 KB ID:	1013429

    Here’s what a Lattarula looks like:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Lattarula fig.jpg Views:	2 Size:	100.0 KB ID:	1013430


    Here’s what a White Marseilles looks like:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	White Marseilles.jpg Views:	2 Size:	174.8 KB ID:	1013431

    1. If I do have an Italian Honey, then why does it get lumped into the same variety as Lattarula and White Marseilles?
    2. If it's not an Italian Honey, what variety exactly do I have?
    3. Or is this simply a Hybrid of 2 fig trees in 1?


    -M
    Last edited by minacio; 07-16-2021, 09:00 AM.
    Garden State 7a

  • #2
    minacio I have read through most of the Lattarula/White Marseilles/Tena/Conadria threads myself and am equally confused. I got a 6 ft. tall TC "Lattarula" last year which had no fruit and was poorly cared for. After heavy pruning and better cultural practices it is bearing fruit this year so until they ripen I can't offer any more other than that my leaves look very similar to yours.

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    NNJ 6B
    Wishlist: Colar d'Albatera, Mary Magdalene's and the Virgin Mary's Fig, Red Lebanese BV

    Comment


    • #3
      This is my "Lattarula" I bought, the only tree I have from tissue culture.

      I just can't remember where I got it from....so it may or may not be true....and it will be a while I'm sure before I see goodies from it.

      Attached Files
      Kevin, N. Ga 7b Cheers!

      Wishing all of you a bountiful harvest!

      Comment


      • Ktrain
        Ktrain commented
        Editing a comment
        It's killin me I can't remember where I got this...I think maybe Stark bros.

      • Red_Sun
        Red_Sun commented
        Editing a comment
        I do not blame you. It is hard to trust all those big sellers. I also get Kadota and Lattarula/Italian Honey. But I'll have to wait for them to fruit before I can positively mark them. I'd just buy from reliable sources and mark them diligently.

      • Ktrain
        Ktrain commented
        Editing a comment
        Yea only 1 other tree I have came from an online nursery, 99% came from figbid.
        I'll just have to wait and see with this one...might be a while. lol

    • #4
      Italian Honey aka Lattarula, White Marseilles, etc are almost identical and get lumped together. You may have to wait for ripe fig comparisons, leaves have lots of (sometimes too many) variations.
      Tena and Conadria are completely different figs.



      Italian Honey Fig tree re-growth from winter die-back...
      Pete R - Hudson Valley, NY - zone 5b

      Comment


      • AscPete
        AscPete commented
        Editing a comment
        Red_Sun ,
        Yes they are the typical 'Italian Honey' / White Figs of this Tri-State area (CT, NJ, NY)...

        The OP's 5-lobed is the 'Mature' / 'Late Season' shape while the 5+2 is the typical 'Juvenile' / 'Fast Growth' shape as seen in the above 're-growth' photo.

      • Red_Sun
        Red_Sun commented
        Editing a comment
        @AscPete

        Well, that is not really my experience. My "WM" develop 5+2 leaf when mature. But it produces single and 3 lobes when "Juvenile". But the Lattarula/IH never develops the extra "2" feet. Leaf is thinner and not deep lobed as my "WM".

      • minacio
        minacio commented
        Editing a comment
        Just to point out, my Juvenile (1yr) and 4 year old tree have the same leaf shape. Different sellers, but both are from Argistarts and purchased 3 years apart.

    • #5
      minacio I'll let others weigh in here but I just wanted to compliment you on doing a good job of researching the topic before asking your question. Bravo!
      Steve
      D-i-c-k-e-r-s-o-n, MD; zone 7a
      WL: Castillon

      Comment


      • minacio
        minacio commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you, sir!

    • #6
      the leaf is not same as my lattarula. probably because growing in different zones. mine is exact same as the sample.
      Richmond, BC, Canada Zone 8A
      WL: List Completed. What do you recommend?

      Comment


      • minacio
        minacio commented
        Editing a comment
        You know, I’ve never heard of the same cultivar growing differently depending on region, but I guess anything is possible. Would you mind sharing when and where did you get your tree from?

      • standalonus
        standalonus commented
        Editing a comment
        My tree is from a member here last year.

    • #7
      I posted some photos of my WM and Lattarula/Italian Honey in another thread:

      https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-h...here-it-stands

      IMO, WM and Lattarula/Italian Honey are probably different trees. I get ready access to at least 4 WM or Italian Honey fig trees. The one I trial extensively is similar to the tree @AscPete has. I believe that matches Condit's perfectly.

      The 2nd and 3rd figs in @minacio post are different fig trees. The leaf lobes are more rounded and much thinner. I put them in the line of Lattarula/Italian Honey. I just do not believe they are the same trees. Or can be explained by growing conditions. All the 4 trees grow locally in similar condition.
      Princeton, New Jersey, 6B
      flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/red-sun/albums
      My FigBid: https://www.figbid.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=RedSun

      Comment


      • #8
        Click image for larger version

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        this is mines i just harvest yesterday. bought at local nursery.
        https://www.youtube.com/c/seattlefigs
        https://www.figbid.com/Listing/Brows...seattlefiggirl
        https//www.instagram.com/Seattlefigs

        Comment


        • #9
          Originally posted by Seattlefiggirl View Post
          Click image for larger version  Name:	231698252_4301018569958077_3863367561536701376_n.jpg Views:	4 Size:	125.1 KB ID:	1026077
          this is mines i just harvest yesterday. bought at local nursery.
          Yes, I've seen this one consistently marked as Lattarula/Italian Honey. This is the same unknown my friend has. But the inside color of the main crop is a little pink. Like to see your main crop fig color.

          Clearly this is different from the deep lobed leaf shape mine has. I think that is the true WM in Condit's narrow sense.
          Princeton, New Jersey, 6B
          flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/red-sun/albums
          My FigBid: https://www.figbid.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=RedSun

          Comment


          • #10
            Click image for larger version  Name:	white merceilles.JPG Views:	0 Size:	894.6 KB ID:	1026109
            Red_Sun yes, i waiting on main crop they are quarter size now. this was last year harvest of my wm this year not ripe/ birds ate it leaves looks different than the Italian honey above. however, i do have a wm finger leaves im testing. i heard this box store finger leaves wm could be tena and not a true wm. but i dont have any fruits this year to confirm/ compare.
            https://www.youtube.com/c/seattlefigs
            https://www.figbid.com/Listing/Brows...seattlefiggirl
            https//www.instagram.com/Seattlefigs

            Comment


            • Red_Sun
              Red_Sun commented
              Editing a comment
              Can't really see the leaf shape. I'm sure this is not finger leaf fig.

            • SeattleFigs
              SeattleFigs commented
              Editing a comment
              Red_Sun the leaves this year came out exactly like my Italian honey above. So i think they are the same. Just my italian honey is more strong grower the leaves more healthy than the one that was sold to me was WM is really italian honey. i m tired of these names just like one simple name.

          • #11
            Mine finally fruited and here is the result. My Italian Honey is more red than the pink/amber and definitely not the greenish/white like most others have with their Lattarula/Italian Honey. Again I purchase this from Hirt’s (Arigistarts) about 5 years ago. I still do not understand how some would consider this the same variety or pass the difference off as a regional thing (limited to the North Eastern States apparently)…. I guess this is why the confusion persists?

            Anyhow, it’s a decent fig overall, but I recently read somewhere this (my) variety is more desirable (in terms of taste) than the greenish/white interiors.

            Attached Files
            Garden State 7a

            Comment


            • #12
              @minacio

              This is clearly not White Marseilles, or Lattarula/Italian Honey either. Both are amber honey color inside. This is my Princeton Honey unk. (Condit's WM). It is pale green outside and amber honey color inside.

              Yours looks more like Atreano or the long-fingered Tena? They are more redish inside.
              Attached Files
              Princeton, New Jersey, 6B
              flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/red-sun/albums
              My FigBid: https://www.figbid.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=RedSun

              Comment


              • #13
                The history of the Lattarula/Italian Honey fig is a big joke and has been posted many times on the forum. Look it up. Also look at Condit's Monograph page 374 for more info. (https://ucanr.edu/datastoreFiles/391-296.pdf) for a free PDF but site seems to be down right now.

                As stated above by Red-Sun all true Blanche and synonyms have a white/tan interior. If you have one with a pink interior what you have is an unknown. As most new folks are learning name labels from sellers are like a slot machine, do you feel lucky? I'm seeing claims of "new" figs like never before on this Forum for the past year or so. Figs do not morph into new varieties. A sport is occasionally found. If you have a fig tree that does not match the known trees the odds of you having a newly discovered fig is very, very slim to none. What you have is the usual problem of mistakes by sellers and Agristarts. The bogus name of Lattarula/Italian Honey needs to disappear and so does Lemon and White Marseille to bring some sanity to the Blanche fig in the USA. Does the USA alone really need 5 names for the same fig? Only the seller gains from multiple names and figgers lose lots of money with this scam every year. The real issue here is the constant selling and buying of figs with those multiple names. I will not buy from a place selling multiple names of the same fig and you should not. Don't support the marketing scammers.

                Blanche=White Marseilles=Lattarula=Italian Honey= Lemon (and others)......all the same, not close or similar.....if they are correctly labeled plants.

                BTW, environment has a big effect on physical traits in a fig plants. This from Condit on the climate influence on the Verdone/Adriatic fig.

                "The influence of climate upon fruit characters is especially marked in this variety. Condit (1950) states that “figs picked at Merced, in the interior valley, on September 24, 1949, for example, showed a pulp light strawberry in color, and a meat thin and white. Figs of the same variety, picked three days later at Mission San Jose, where the climate is cool, showed the pulp to be blood red and the meat tinged with violet.”

                Environment alway affects plants; more sunlight, higher temps, better soil and more rain will always be a differing look from the same plant with less sunlight, lower temps, poor soil and less rain. Does not make them different figs. I believe one Brown Turkey tree was cataloged with 11 different leaf types on it by Condit. One study I read uses only the "third" leaf on a branch as a more accurate leaf type for comparisons. Apparently newer and older leaves show a greater variation. So don't get too hung up on leaves matching exactly from one plant to another. The fruit is usually a more consistent indicator of synonymous growth but as above, not always,LOL! ID'ing figs is very time consuming and a PIA, often just a lost cause. A fig that says unknown can still be an excellent fig even if we never ID it.

                Comment


                • #14
                  Condit mentioned about 500+ fig varieties. I have a new list of 500+ fig varieties now. I think a lot of the original fig varieties get lost since they were not so "common". Then they were "discovered" again by new generation. Then they get new names. Some (like us) try to get back the original name (like White Marseilles). Some fig sellers are happy to raise new names.

                  This goes on and on. Certainly there are few good "new seedlings" from wasp country. But most of the fig varieties elsewhere are existing figs. Just that they are not so common. How many varieties are considered common? 20? 50? I'm sure White Madeira #1 is not a "new " variety. I can't comment on Robert's Rainbow since it is from California. Brooklyn White is not new either. But we do not know their names. So we name them with new names.

                  I'm perfectly happy with this. This is how fig community can evolve. Personally I like the original names and I like to know what fig varieties I truly have.
                  Princeton, New Jersey, 6B
                  flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/red-sun/albums
                  My FigBid: https://www.figbid.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=RedSun

                  Comment


                  • Red_Sun
                    Red_Sun commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yes, that is what I'm afraid of. It is so easy to make a fancy name or add own initial to anything they do not know of. Some sellers profit from selling fancy "rare" varieties. While some other linger from having a bunch of good "unknowns" varieties. It is not fair. But it is what it is.

                    To me, it is more fun to know the limited varieties I get and enjoy the production, than accumulating 200+ varieties and get lost as to what is what. But to profit from the fig business, you'll have to get more varieties, particularly the "rare" varieties, not the unknown varieties.

                  • jmrtsus
                    jmrtsus commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I give away hundreds of cutting per year and many rooted frees, 320 cutting this Spring and 20 trees last month alone. I never paid more than $4 per cuttings delivered and never sold anything. I don't collect figs. I have zero rare figs and want none. There are two ways to make money selling cuttings. Sell illegal ones for a fortune or scam people with Brown Turkey cuttings as an expensive type name.

                  • Red_Sun
                    Red_Sun commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yes, I generally put $3-$5 per cutting average. I personally would not care what others do. I'm not a fig police or a forum sheriff.

                    I have fun with those unknowns. At least I know they grow well in my climate and do not have any diseases.
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