LSU Fig Cultivars

[mountainfigs]

Based on a little research (mainly drawing on lists by paully22) and reading widely, I'll put here a list of fig cultivars either known or assumed to have come out of the LSU fig breeding program. It's a tentative list always open for subtraction, deletion, or other correction. Given the way fig trees were distributed from that program "for trial" and otherwise, I would imagine that more LSU cultivars exist than the ones below. A lot of info at cajunfigs blog that I've not reviewed thoroughly. A definitive research project on LSU fig cultivars would be welcome. Serious input from LSU itself would be useful.

LSU FIGS

1. Champagne
2. Golden Celeste (3 strains)
3. Hollier
4. Improved Celeste (3 or more strains)
5. Jack Lily
6. O'Rourke
7. Scott's Black
8. Scott's Yellow (Brandy possibly)
9. St Gabriel
10. Thibodaux
11. LSU #5
12. LSU #156
13. LSU Black
14. LSU Brown
15. LSU Everbearing
16. LSU Gold (aka Cajun Honey?)
17. LSU Late Black
18. LSU Purple (2 strains)
19. LSU Red
20. LSU Tiger (originally Giant Celeste, not Mega Celeste)
21. LSU White Honey

This list has been and will continue to be modified by additional information, some of which has been contributed in this thread. The list necessarily remains tentative and always subject to change.

[Hershell]

Thanks Tony, I'm trying to collect LSU figs and am up to 12. I have LSU Hunt that has just rooted. This gives me a better idea of the ones I want to look for.

[noss]

Mountainfigs, I'm sorry, but I don't see any triangle in a blue area in the right of anywhere here. This site is making me feel absolutely lost, but I'm learning..... I hope.

noss

[Darkman]

At the bottom of the signature line, in this case it says "Ray City Georgia Zone 8a", on the right side of the page you see four word buttons. They are labeled "Quote Comment Flag Like". Directly below the like you should see a small box with a triangle in it. clicking it will allow you to see all of the comments for that post. Just to the left of the box it will indicate what comments are being shown. Without clicking the triangle the forum default is the last three comments posted.

[noss]

Darkman, Thank you so much for telling me how to uncover the hidden posts. It worked. Viv

[hoosierbanana]

"Golden Celeste" has no connection to LSU. It was apparently grown from seed by NGS in Davis. It looks just like Alma.

---

DFIC 161

Ficus carica L. MORACEAE (fig) 'Golden Celeste'
Donated from: Texas, United States (Comment: Donated to NCGR, Davis.)
Maintained by the Natl. Germplasm Repository - Davis. NPGS received: 29-Jan-1996. Life form: Tree. Form received: Seed.
Narrative

Info. from Christopher Stanford, 1/29/1996: Fruit small, sweet, good quality, exterior and interior yellow. Pedicels short. Plants prolific, tolerant to nematodes and cold.

---

There could be a variety that is closely related to Champagne which was sold as GC, I just have not seen compelling evidence that those plants are actually different from Champagne. A single variation like pulp color or eye size could be caused by the condition of the tree.

[hoosierbanana]

Hi Viv, Francisco described the effect of caprification on common figs well:
"The change is obvious.
Now we have a fully crunchy fig (all its seeds are full with a solid and much flavored kernel) syrup to spare and if that was not enough, a nicer red color and far more weight.
All Common figs benefit from caprification" -I remember him saying they ripen a bit faster also.

I have noticed that figs from the same tree can look different from year to year and month to month based on weather, also, different trees of the same variety will make different looking figs depending on their individual growing conditions (soil, water, and sun exposure). Looking at pictures of the same variety grown in different regions by different members (even without the wasp) also demonstrates this phenomenon. I did not volunteer for this forum's panel on naming but do remember reading in a public discussion that these are considerations they will make when attempting to attribute synonyms and identify unknowns as unique varieties.

The only Golden Celeste I have is the one from Davis, and I raised them next to Alma so to me the similarity was very obvious. I do wonder how it could have been given to Davis as a seed along with a fruit description...

Dan has never explained (that I have seen) who named his trees Golden Celestes, he says elsewhere that they trace back to Dr. O'Rourke himself but presumable the numbers given when the initial selection was made have been lost. If the original selection # were still attached to Dan's GCs he could easily determine which of his trees are the same as Champagne (L55-13-22), and if in fact they are different selections at all.

Sorry if this creates conflicting feelings for you, I am doing my best to be respectful and substantiate my positions.

[noss]

Hi Brent, I was just having a case of culture shock, saying what I said. I'm not really upset, so no apology necessary. I'm still trying to figure out how I can get to the hidden posts that fold up to save room, so I can see them. They can run, but they cannot hide from me. I'll find 'em sooner, or later. I want to learn all I can and right now there's a gap in me from the time I had so much trouble with my eyes, but at least that got straightened out.

I have a yellow fig that looks like a Celeste and has a caramel colored pulp that I got as a Golden Celeste/Champagne. What is it? Is it just one of the hybrids from LSU's program?

Viv

[hoosierbanana]

I don't have Champagne, only the GC from Davis. I would like to grow it someday though.

There are very good pics and descriptions in the press release LSU put out to compare too. Other members who are growing it could also tell if you take some pics. http://www.lsu.edu/departments/horti...e/new_figs.pdf

[greenfig]

Brent,
What do you mean by saying "it looks just like Alma"?
The way it was introduced or the actual fruit similarities? (I am curious since they do not look like similar in my case , my GC is read inside, I bought it from Jon)

[hoosierbanana]

The fruit, leaves, and plant look the same to me. On a genetic map they are right next to each other.

You must have one that originated from a southern nursery, similar or the same as Champagne.

[Wisner]

What I'd like to know, is where is the evidence that some of these figs even exist. For example, LSU Red. If you do a search for it you find nothing from LSU written about it and no pictures. It seems like someone can make a claim that they found a "lost" LSU fig and there is no evidence that it came from the LSU breeding program.

[King Fig]

I have private first hand info regarding many of the LSU bred figs....LSU Red was indeed bred by dr. O'rourke.

[Darkman]

There were hundreds of figs that showed promise that were deliberately or backdoored to individuals throughout the LSU area to do trials officially and unofficially. These figs were designated by numbers but if the fig showed promise and had good fruit it naturally was given a name which most were not official LSU names. These unofficial figs were propagated and given to others who did the same possibly even changing or giving them names. LSU released very few figs officially. Even as recently as two years ago Dr, Charlie Johnson hinted that a new fig may be released but would not give a name. He did say that it was an Improved Celeste whatever that means beyond the obvious!!!

Love him or hate him, Dan Abadie probably has the most information about LSU figs. Notice I did not say released figs!

[Gina]

For the record, I removed a comment under post #6, by King Fig, posted on 3/31. As Wills said below, "Dan, civility and polite.........any posts that are not will be removed in their entirety."

[paully22]

Its unfortunate that Dan volunteered to leave as the potential in LSU variants(knowns + unknowns) have good potentials. I am sure we will have good news on the horizon as more serious collecters take note of LSU type figs. Last month I was told 3 un-named LSU
variants that are different from what is known are available & good news will follow.

[noss]

You got that right, Darkman, about Dan, I mean. He obviously does not want to be loved, but respected for the work he's done with figs and he should be. He's always treated me decently, but then, I've always respected the fig research he's done.

At the Fig Field Day at the Burden Center near LSU, Dr. Johnson said they were going to release the Scott's Black and the true SB is red inside-The one that will be released. I don't recall hearing anything about an improved Celeste, but I didn't hear everything Dr. Johnson said. Maybe they are going to release an Improved Celeste because, though the O'Rourke is an improved Celeste that they chose for the official improved Celeste, improved Celestes are not all O'Rourkes. When I bought improved Celeste trees from three local growers, they made sure I knew that they were improved Celestes, not O'Rourkes and they were affiliated with the people with the fig program at LSU for many year, so they knew and wanted me to have the correct name of the trees. One was Roy Young, one was Dr. Thomas Mayer and the other was, Mark Simon.

[King Fig]

That is correct.....I know more about the LSU figs than the current people at LSU.
When I get a chance I will address errors in some of what has been posted in this thread.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[King Fig]

Dan
Semper-Ficus

[King Fig]

I was referring to Wills who I have erroneously called Charles several times before. Made the same mistake again.

Dan

[Darkman]

Quite all right Dan. I hope you will stick around and tell us more about your LSU figs. I have been quite the defender of you in the past. When some said you did not even have figs I viewed the satellite images of your property an very easily saw your figs. I then told those people they were wrong and you were right. Maybe at some point in the future I'd like to visit with you and talk about them.

[King Fig]

Some of us are fortunate enough to have fig trees on other properties that we own. Google Earth has no idea as to the extent of my properties. Not all my fig trees are in my yard. I own stock in two sugar cane plantations and have other properties. It is foolish for peeps to make such silly claims and gossip about it when they don't have the facts. Their snooping skills are flawed. They love to defame peeps they do not like. Thanks for defending me from those hateful peeps.

Dan
Semper Fi-Cus

[Wisner]

I'm trusting that LSU picked the best one to put the O'Rourke name on. I am growing an Improved Celeste from Mr. Roy Young's Nursery in Abbeville, La. He is now deceased and his trees go back before LSU officially released O'Rourke. I am going to compare it to my O'Rourke I started from a cutting at the LSU field day.

[Wisner]

What I am saying is, around 2007 the O'Rourke was chosen and named by LSU from the trees that came from the 1957 breeding program and was considered the best of that type of fig.

http://www.lsu.edu/departments/horticulture/new_figs.pdf

[noss]

Wisner, Roy Young told me his trees are improved Celestes, not O'Rourkes. I asked him why he didn't have O'Rourkes, too and he said he didn't need to get things mixed up. Keeping is simple.

This is just my opinion, but it seems that the improved Celestes are more prolific bearers than the O'Rourkes, but Gene has told me that his O'Rourkes do not split in the rain/humidity and that would be a good reason to choose that one.

[Darkman]

That day at Burden Field I was the lucky recipient of the O'Rourke given to me by Dr. Johnson. It has grown well and I hope to get fruit this year.

[eboone]

Dan, is the Champagne variety the same as one of the 3 Golden Celeste varieties you mentioned?

[paully22]

My Champagne from Jon is "longish" in shape. I have seen pic's of Champagne that looks "roundish" in shape. I
like the Champagne I have.

[paully22]

My growing experience with LSU varieties is a happy one for my zone. They are reliable, bountiful and rival
many big name figs.

[King Fig]

What makes the LSU fig cultivars so interesting is the fact that they are hybrids......which gives them vigor and productivity. And the fact that they are derived from a good genetic gene pool of Hunt and Celeste mother figs.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[King Fig]

Wisner,

It was Dr. Johnson and Dr. Himelrick who released Champagne, Tiger, and O'Rourke in 2007. The current people at LSU are utterly clueless as to the LSU bred figs that Dr. O'Rourke himself gave to other fig lovers for them to study to aide in his research efforts. I know two of the fig researchers who worked with Dr. O'Rourke at LSU during the fig breeding. And I know some of the people to whom he gave his "selections" for further study.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[hoosierbanana]

What makes the LSU fig cultivars so interesting is the fact that they are hybrids......which gives them vigor and productivity. And the fact that they are derived from a good genetic gene pool of Hunt and Celeste mother figs.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Heterosis (hybrid vigor), is a term used to describe the phenomenon where F1 seedlings grow more vigorously than either inbred (homozygous, 2 identical alleles) parent. Breeding for heterosis is a specific process which requires inbred parents.

While the term hybrid is used loosely to describe a cross between 2 genetically distinct specimens, hybrid vigor does not apply to all hybrids. Self fertilizing or crossing heterozygous (not inbred) plants results in seedlings that vary from each other significantly (including vigor). The LSU figs are typical of crossing heterozygous plants, showing nearly every gene combination possible between the 2 parents.

The LSU program did little more than the wasp to produce seeds, the superior qualities of releases are the result of careful selection.

[hoosierbanana]

Perhaps you would be happy with the descriptive term "modern hybrid"?

"Both Mediterranean and non-Mediterranean wild figs are fully interfertile and produce hybrids that are adapted to a wide range of ecological conditions (Storey and Condit 1969)."

[King Fig]

No thanks. I live in the fig world and am very happy using the term "hybrid". I write a lot about fig culture in the Deep South.......and have given an exact definition for the hybrids (classification) I choose to write about. Other classifications I use include French, Italian, heirlooms, Persians, etc.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[hoosierbanana]

You can use the word hybrid all you want to Dan, as Pete pointed out below it can convey important information about the parentage of a seedling. And as I have pointed out, all figs are heterozygous and therefore "hybrids". You cannot exclude the use of hybrid to describe seedlings resulting from a random cross made by the wasp, such as my Couro Duro hybrids/seedlings. They show a wide range of phenotypes (leaf shape, vigor, pigmentation, and presumably fruit), they are observably hybrids. If you insist on a term that excludes "classical hybrids" then a qualifier such as modern is needed for accuracy, it has been used for Conadria on occasion. There will be some confusion since the term "modern hybrid" is most often used to describe F1 corn hybrids (the result of breeding 2 homozygous plants to achieve heterosis). But since figs do not self pollinate that type of hybridization program is neither needed (to overcome inbreeding depression), or feasible (would involve only caprifigs).

[paully22]

There is a likelihood that LSU Brown is Thibodaux. More un-named strains of LSU figs have been
discover. Regarding the several strains of Improved Celeste etc, I wonder how much these strains
differ in taste, reliability, color and bountifulness

[AscPete]

Most of the the LSU figs were hybridized, selected and cross bred over 40 years before they were released. As noted in the example of the attached LSU Gold Release document... http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...6-b444124dfa44 The Champagne, Tiger and O'Rourke are probably similar except they were released in honor of Dr. O'Rourke due to the fact that he was credited with their original selection. The following link has the other LSU releases, http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...=yes&x=15&y=13 . The timespan between the actual breeding and releases in part explains why there are so many LSU cultivars in circulation.

It would have been interesting to know which figs Dr. O'Rourke would have actually selected for his personal orchard.

[Wisner]

On the description of Champagne fig on the Durio Nursery site, it states Dr O'Rourke considered Champagne his best fig. I really enjoy the taste of my Champagne.

[King Fig]

While Dalton might have that on his website....that information is simply.not correct. His favorite was one of the Improved Celeste figs that was brown in color. And yes the figgin "I" is capitalized.....😃

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[Wisner]

I know I like mine. I prefer the Champagne's taste way more than the LSU Gold.

[King Fig]

........and I bet that no one on this forum (or any of the other fig forums for that matter) knows that LSU Gold was once one of those "lost" LSU hybrids!! That's right folks. LSU Gold was lost (through the University's neglect) and only in the hands of private collections long BEFORE LSU officially released it to the general public. Did any of you guys know this FACT? I have never taken the time to write about that little known fact not even in my short write up about "The LSU Fig Story" on my fig Blog (Dan's Cajun Figs).

So, I chuckle whenever I read peeps say that if the unknown LSU hybrids were any good.......LSU would have already released them. If only they knew about the others that even the current peeps at LSU do/did not know exist! Lol

I have already made the fig world aware of many of those LSU hybrids listed above. Few peeps knew the existence of many of those listed above until I wrote about them on both fig forums. I expect to see several named above to become "officially released" in the future.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[King Fig]

As stated many of the above listed LSU hybrids were lost....and long before 1994. Where is that public information for all of those other once lost hybrids? I have already provided relevant information regarding the names of some of the lesser hybrids.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[hoosierbanana]

You would lose that bet!

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/40/2/486.full.pdf

[Darkman]

Hi Brent,

I'm not trying to one up you, change your mind or anything else. I hope that we can be friends and not let this come between us.

My source is the one you quoted.

http://www.lsu.edu/departments/horticulture/new_figs.pdf

They further stated that "elite selections" were "maintained". To me "Maintain" means status quo. No improvement no loss just existing under their protection.

I took the word "discontinued" at face value. They stopped.

Further in the paragraph they stated "In 1997, we initiated a project with the intent of re-establishing an evaluation orchard containing the elite selections and recommended cultivars for comparison of fruiting characteristics, disease resistance, growth characteristics and cold tolerance for commercial potential."

They used the phrase,"intent of re-establishing" hence it no longer was and they needed to start it again.

My phrase "actively managing their efforts to develop commercial figs" means the goal was to enhances the qualities of the figs they had to a point they were superior to what the market had to offer. Superior enough that the market would require these new figs and the older ones would not be a viable product anymore.

Lost also means no longer under your control. That would be #4 in your definition. I believe that is the definition I choose to use and I believe it applies to this situation.

The definition of the word Save implies control over the item saved. If that was the case and we are speaking of the ones not classified as the "elite selections" then they would have had control over them but they didn't did they. It says, "Trees were propagated from reliable sources that had maintained trees from the original plantings." Reliable sources had control not LSU. Again we have the word Maintain as in status quo.

Lastly they stated, "Morphological characteristics of the putative selections were carefully compared to original notes and photographs to ensure proper identification." If they had been under LSU control then they would know what they were. This was not quality control, this was a effort to reconcile what was thought to what was recorded at LSU.

I'm truly sorry we have embarked on this verbal jousting. I have no taste for it as I sense more than just conversation.

[hoosierbanana]

There do seem to be stakes involved here Charles. As I said, I did not intend to debate this topic, it has become a matter of belief; is the glass half empty or half full? Did LSU fail to realize their goals due to neglect or succeed through thoughtful planning and persistence (pun intended)? To me the evidence only shows success. Blaming a successful program for losing the same varieties that they used to accomplish their goals as best they could truly turns my mind in knots.

At the selection stages there is no enhancement (making crosses) involved. Selections were made from a standardized planting, all the plants are treated equally to compare them fairly it is the true purpose of "re-establishing" an orchard. Selection is just as important as enhancement in the development process.

The original selection numbers were kept with the trees, evidence to me that there was no loss of control. They placed them at new locations, specifically the Hammond and Citrus Research stations, which they must consider to be 2 of an untold number of "reliable sources" which kept the trees alive and tagged for future use. The fact that they verified identities is not a reason for suspicion, had all the tags come loose they may as well have renumbered them.

Thank you for keeping our disagreement polite and impersonal Charles.

[Darkman]

Finally something we can agree on!

There is water.... or something in the glass!

I believe we have both submitted closing arguments here and we should leave it to the readers if there are any left to form their opinions.

I truly hope that LSU will release new cultivars in the future!

[Wisner]

From your link- Trees for this project were propagated from reliable sources
that had maintained trees from the original
plantings. This sounds like LSU no longer had the trees and had to get them from other sources.

[King Fig]

I still would have taken that bet. Google is amazing at finding out information once one knows what keywords to use. Where's the write up on all the other LSU hybrids? .......so this naming confusion can end once and for all.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

[AscPete]

Dan,
There isn't any "real" naming confusion... The only confusion I've seen is the one that's been perpetuated by Commercial nurseries with the Improved Celeste / O'Rourke cultivars.

The unreleased LSU Hybrids never had actual names only numbers, some had been given unofficial names.
From reading the info on your Blog and from the LSU release documentation it is now common knowledge that there are may more of those LSU hybrids outside of LSU and most of the original orchards and trees don't exist.

Since the real cross breeding and evaluations were done in the early 60's and the orchards no longer exists, It will probably be difficult to reconcile many of those LSU Hybrids with actual documentation.

[hoosierbanana]

More about not using the wrong terms, like hybrid. Pete shared that paper in post #16 though...

There are more papers, try this: "ficus LSU site:hortsci.ashspublications.org"

[noss]

While I find the LSU fig hunting fascinating, I wish more of them had had tight/closed/whatever you'd call it, eyes with a more solid pulp, but I guess you can't have everything. Are there any large figs with solid pulp, or closed/tight/whatever you'd call it, eyes? My philosophy is, if the figs are smaller, eat more of them. Do large figs ever have closed eyes?

noss

[hoosierbanana]

I think the term closed eye means the center is solid, while an open eye has a tunnel that leads into the center. The eye size does seem to be relative to the overall size. It does not necessarily mean that a fig will be good or bad in the rain though, some tight eyed figs split easily.
The skin also matters and was probably a big part of the LSU selection process. Thin/fuzzy skinned figs can form sunken mold colonies in wet conditions that show themselves after a day in the fridge. For instance Longue D'Aout can resist splitting and spoiling through the eye but the skin cracks and gets moldy. Perhaps that is why LSU chose to not release Improved Celeste? The skin is too delicate for a commercial variety.

Atreano has a tight eye and can be very large, the skin is also suited to resist mold but on occasion has tasted like a watery cucumber to me. Abebereira should also fit the bill, have not tried it yet but it looks amazing!

[noss]

Thanks, Brent. I am aware that if figs are ripening and heavy rains come along at the wrong time, the roots will take up too much water, too quickly and blow the figs up, or at least make them very watery. More than just eye size/opening inside are factors. Even Celestes will sour in heavy rains. Gene says his O'Rourkes don't split and still taste good even in rainy weather, but the taste can be a little dilute. Another friend said the reason they plant the fig trees up on berms is that it drains the excess rainwater away from the trees' roots to mitigate too much water too quickly. This is recommended for citrus trees as well, to keep them from getting root rot from wet weather.

[CajunB]

There are 5 more varities planted at Burden Center in Baton Rouge that were never released to the public ,but were save by Dr.Johnson before the greenhouse was demolish.......plants are still small and have away to go to bear fruit .

DC 1
DC2
DC6
DC7
Buddy Lee

The DC stands for dead cat,cause when Dr.Johnson's staff was taking cuttings ,there was a dead cat found in the green house

[Go_Figger]

Hi Brian!

Is that true about the DC? Lol that's hilarious. I actually thought the "dead cat" was some sort of euphemism for "lost" or abandoned varieties. Lol oh man

[Go_Figger]

Ummm... and also sad. Yes, I should add that it is also tragic. Sorry, I didn't mean to make light of a dead animal. I just thought it was funny because it's kind of a gross piece of trivia. Thanks for sharing!

[Fig-Doctor]

I rooted DC2. I think I got it from you Lol

[AscPete]

Brent,
I'm not a stickler for correct terminology but "hybrid" is the correct term for the Celeste hybrid seedlings bred by LSU.
Ira J. Condit at UC Riverside bred many hybrids most notable is Conadria which has the alias of Verdone hybrid or Adriatic hybrid.

IMO it would be more appropriate to refer to the LSU bred "Celeste" figs as Celeste hybrids than the often confusing term "Improved Celeste", which should only ever be applied to two (2) specific fig cultivars, O'Rourke and the LSU Improved Celeste (Hybrid) aka 1-3 Lobed Improved Celeste.

Here are the additional PDFs linked in post #16
Champagne... http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...1-a852c181b74b
O'Rourke... http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...1-a852c181b74b
Tiger... http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...1-a852c181b74b

Info that's often overlooked in the release documents are the comparative size and sweetness of the figs, its been my experience that the brix #'s are correct relative to the cultivars (least sweet to sweetest).

[hoosierbanana]

Those uses seem correct to me Pete. LSU did not use the word hybrid often so as a search term it will exclude valid results when looking for primary info, the point of my comment made to Dan above. Thanks for sharing the releases, btw.

[AscPete]

Brent,
You're welcome.
Its true that LSU didn't use the term often enough and there's little info and documentation in the public domain, but hopefully someone connected to the university has some additional documentation that could provide more (some) info for the less known but loved cultivars.