Varieties you wonder might be the same.

[Harborseal]

I think we should make a list of varieties that might be the same so we can explore the issue. 71GTO has requested Lattarolla vs Lyndhurst White. Kelby has requested Galbun vs Gulbun and it makes sense to put Croisic in there. Elsewhere people were wondering whether Adriatic Grasa is the same as Desert King. I'm going to grow these varieties side by side so we can compare the 2 plants in growth conditions as similar as possible. If a lot of people did this we'd be able to control for things like humidity as well. By that I mean that my leaves and fruit may be affected by humidity and 2 plants may look the same while someone with less humidity might have leaves that look different. They could be different from each other and/or different from mine We won't know until we check it out.

Then in mid Summer - early Fall we can post photos of the 2 or 3 plants and people can weigh in on the similarities and differences. Anyone who wants to do this would help by contributing valuable information. Even if you only have 1 of the plants your photos will help. Each pair/triplet should probably have their own thread once photos are posted but a listing of varieties to test by planting side by side should probably be in this thread for ease of reference.

And, of course, some of will have figs that are mislabeled but at least we'll find out

What other varieties should we test to see if they're the same?

[Bijan]

Hi Bob,

How about VdB / Negronne / Petite Aubique / Vista / Petite Negri / Angelique / etc.

[Darkman]

I also have Petite Negri, Vista and VDB. That gives us another geographical area for comparison. My Vista has breba but the others don't. VDB is too small but PN is in ground and large enough to have them. The V did receive Winter protection. I'd be thrilled if they where identical as I am out of ground space.

[MichaelTucson]

Here in zone 5a, I think
Negronne = Violette de Bordeaux
but Aubique Petite is different from those.
Petite Negri is different from all three of the above.

I am growing all four of the above, and I think they relate that way.
Vista and Angelique I don't grow, so I don't know for sure. (But I *suspect* that Angelique is also different)

Mike zone 5a, central NYS

[MichaelTucson]

I guess my observations agree with JD's comment, above. Except that I further say that I think Negronne and Violette De Bordeaux are the same.

Mike zone 5a, central NYS

[AscPete]

Like many others I've been growing several same named cultivars and "aliases" from different sources for comparison...
IMO, Violette de Bordeaux / Beers Black / Negronne are cultivars that seem to have been confused over time and are good candidates.
They are readily available cultivars that ripens exceptional tasting figs, even in colder zones.

[COGardener]

What plants from what source will be used as control? How would you know you have a copy of a DNA tested true to cultivar plant in which to compare the simular cultivars to?

[MichaelTucson]

I agree with the point you are implying here, Scott.

I want to respond to the quote from Bob...

We won't know until we check it out.

by saying:
And even then we won't know.

Mike central NYS, zone 5a

[nepenthes]

I've been confused by Green Ischia = Verte = Strawberry Verte when reading up on figs, too.

[Michael]

I have both Green Ischia and Strawberry Verte growing in pots side by side. I just started this year so they are still relatively small (GI is about 20" while SV is about 10"), the leaves are definitely different. GI has three lobed and some of the SV are more five lobed. Of course, doesn't mean mine are accurately labeled. I'll have to wait for fruit.

[greenfig]

Niagara Black vs. LdA ?
F. Preto vs. Black Madeira ?

[Rewton]

I'm growing both but the NB is too young to compare to LdA at this point. From what I have read though, they are very similar but the one thing that sets them apart is that NB leaks honey from the eye whereas LdA not so much. As far as FP vs. BM, from the two plants I compared I think they are the same but FP is a slightly more vigorous grower.

[Bijan]

Last year, my Blk Mad (4 years from UCD) was slightly ahead of Preto (2 years from Encanto Farms). Neither one ripened fruit, however. The leaves look the same and the (unripened) fruit looked the same. At this point, despite the age discrepancy, they are both about the same height (slight edge to Preto). This year, Preto has broken dormancy less than a week ahead of Blk Mad.

[eboone]

Nero vs Brogiotto Nero, possible other synonyms ? This was discussed on F4F a little in the past. There are several 'Nero' figs I think.

I have Adriatic (Grasa) and DK to compare this year, but no other of the sets mentioned here

[Rob Ster 010]

In Italy there are 2 types of Brogiotto Nero. The most well known is the regular Brogiotto Nero with round fruit, the other is called Brogiotto Nero Romano, this one has more elongated fruit. So it could well be that "Nero" is Brogiotto Nero Romano?

[greenfig]

I compared a DK and a Grasa's fig last year. They were very similar, the DK was much redder inside though

[Bijan]

I'm growing Kala Heera / Gosh which I have seen compared to D.K.

[Rafaelissimmo]

How about comparing the various Paradisos? I am growing Paradiso Gene and used to have Paradiso Morle. There's also a Bronze and a Nero. And there are Paradisos in Italy, and there is the great Paradiso Giovanni, grown only by him in Philly. Bill in NJ grows a White Paradiso of uncertain origin.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Even though Texas BA-1 and Smith are decidedly the same, it would still be nice to hear other members' comparisons. I might have fruit from both this year.

[JLB]

I have two each both two years old in 5gal pots no fruit but from leaves and growth patterns I would not say they are the same , also have one each tissue culture Beers black and VdB very small but have looked different from the start they are TC and do have same growth pattern but leaves are a little different and color is very different the BB is very dark green the VdB is lighter they are planted right next to each other

[Snaglpus]

It's good to compare but I really don't think it's going to lead to anything. Many years ago, I ask many questions about several varieties listed here. I asked several forum friends whom are no longer members. I was told to get trees and cuttings and judge them for myself. So, that's what I've been doing all these years.

To me knowing if a fig is the same as another figs is just meaningless. I have many of the figs listed above but no matter what I or others say about whether certain figs are the same.....you will always alway alway have doubters or those who still question other people's findings. What is needed in all this is the root source on where folks got their figs. That's all you can do. Why? Because there are many nurseries out there that sell figs under certain names. Are these names true? Who knows and who cares? Even the DNA data at UCD is in question. So, to me, all we can do is document where we get our figs from. And some folks drive around their local town and find figs---they give these figs names which is also in my opinion is not good. I've done it too---but since changed my figs back and renaming them as "unknown". Just my two cents.....

[Bijan]

Dennis,

If I were in Texas looking over the three acres of land where I have trees planted plus room for a lot more, I would completely agree with you. My mindset has changed quite a bit, however, since being in Colorado where I have already pushed the upper limits of how many trees I can grow. It will be an even greater struggle to find room to house them this coming winter. To me the question is not what is the same, rather what is different. I have VdB in Colorado and Beer's Black in Texas. I have both Abebereira and Vista on a wish list. It seems like Vista is the one to have, but I do not really know what makes it different. I really do not have room to grow 6 very similar (same) varieties for several years to be able to compare for myself.

[indestructible87]

Bayernfeige Violetta and English Brown Turkey

[Kelby]

ALL the EBT variants! Nexoe/Bornholm, Sweet George, Hanc's EBT, LaRadek's EBT, Bayernfeige Violetta, etc etc. I have 2 on the list, hope to add a third this year.

[Harborseal]

Etc, Etc isn't allowed. We need whatever specific varieties you want to compare or we won't know what plants to put together.

[Kelby]

Grantham's Royal = Dauphine?

[Rob Ster 010]

http://s18.postimg.org/p3efgx21l/IMG_4115.jpg

[Rob Ster 010]

And breba. Tree has just broke bud.
http://s21.postimg.org/qcadzeq3b/IMG_4114.jpg

[Harborseal]

I would suggest including all Dauphines and we can see the differences or similarities.

[Harborseal]

What plants from what source will be used as control? How would you know you have a copy of a DNA tested true to cultivar plant in which to compare the simular cultivars to?

It's going to have to be majority rules. It's very helpful to know where your cuttings came from for as far back as possible. If my Genovese Nero is different than 5 others' GN, then I'll have to rename mine GN not, unless someone knows what it is. Or I could send a cutting to one of the 5 and see how it looks in their environment.

And for me it's a matter of culling the herd. I've reached capacity and if I have 6 that are similar I can afford to let 3 or 4 go depending on how good they are. I can do it myself but it would take 5 - 7 years depending on how cool my summers are. As a group we could probably get good info in 1 season.

And please don't put question marks I'm going to put all of my plants in any group above together and see what happens. If you're interested, it's in.

[MichaelTucson]

Bob, I'll support your efforts with this kind of thing, but...

It's going to have to be majority rules.

Really? You mean Truth (whatever it is) is a matter of "majority rules"? Seems to me that genetic tests ought to trump any majority. (I do get it that there are multiple questions embedded there -- genetic testing of "what" exactly? -- but still...

[COGardener]

Bob, thank you.

I hope this clears up a lot of confusion.

[Harborseal]

Just for housekeeping I'm putting them all in 1 post. I'm going to print this out when it's final and use it to arrange my pots. Sorry. Hershell, you'll just have to dig out your trees and replant

Any corrections or additions, please feel free.

Remember, if you only have 1 plant your leaf and fig photos will still be valuable.


VdB, Beer's Black, Abebereira and Vista

Grantham's Royal = Dauphine?

Texas BA-1 and Smith

Paradisos: Compare & Contrast

Nero vs Brogiotto Nero

Niagara Black vs. LdA

F. Preto vs. Black Madeira

Green Ischia / Verte / Strawberry Verte

Violette de Bordeaux / Beers Black / Petite Aubique / Vista / Petite Negri / Angelique

Lattarolla vs Lyndhurst White

Galbun vs Gulbun vs Croisic

Adriatic Grasa / Desert King

[Darkman]

How does the first one differ from the 9th one?

[Harborseal]

Thanks. I'll ask a mod to combine those lists, or maybe I'll do it after more combos are added and I post a second version.

[kubota1]

Stella and Vasilika Sika Bc

[drphil69]

I would think determining if Adriatic Grasa is DK would be easy since DK is a San Pedro, has a good breba crop and the main crop would only work if you have the wasp... am I right about this?

[Rafaelissimmo]

I thought I read that Herman2 definitively settled this question last year, maybe I misunderstood?

[drphil69]

If so, do we know its true identity? I have one, been growing since fall in 1 gallon now.

[noss]

Rafaelissimmo--So, what did Herman say about it??? Don't leave me hanging here.

I got a White Triana that turned out to be a Not because it showed me it was breba only and looks an awful lot like a DK, but is it? I think it is, but it's not as red inside. No chance for the wasp here, so it drops the main crop and one year, it got brebas on it that were delicious, then started setting on main crop, only to put out more brebas afterward. The second crop of brebas were not as good as the first. I have no idea what the tree really is, but people have seen the photos and think-DK. I don't have room for a breba-only tree.

noss

[Snaglpus]

James, I completely see your point.

I am rolling on the floor laughing (ROTFL)!!!!! You guys are funny.

One question for folks here.....when one or two or three poeple on this forum say fig a is the same as fig b. Who verifies or validates their "data" or "source" and gives the stamp of approval? Am I the only one questioning this?

Sorry for being the "long pole in the tent" here. I just want people to think and not just jump on the band wagon. What we need is recorded facts. Case in point......many of us donate fig trees to UCD, Bass, JV, Me, and others. When you do, they ask you 3 questions.

1. What is your Name or nursery name?
2. What is the name of the fig?
3. Where did your fig come from?

Is this forum going to start a database and keep data like that? #ROTFL

[Bijan]

I do not think you are the only one questioning this. If you remember in some of our earlier discussions regarding databases, I mentioned the one I had started to put together gave each tree a unique serial number. When the tree was propagated, the new tree's record included a link to the parent via the parent's serial number. Part of the reason for this was to trace lineage/source and to more easily track down/correct problems with misidentifications. Unfortunately, I do not think this panacea is realistic anymore. The amount of backtracking would be tremendous and full of pitfalls.

For me the focus has changed from seeking an absolute answer to looking for trends from the collective.

[HarveyC]

I'm with Dennis, here, and think there is more danger than benefit to coming up with such a list. Somebody else got started with a synonym list and got blasted for it and he's on the no fly list here. Another member of the other forum held in pretty high regard made a claim a couple of years ago that someone's unknown was a FMV version of a highly sought-after variety. 100% sure, without a doubt. Two years went by and then he quietly commented that it was something else. I'm sorry about being vague here but I'm trying not to get anybody angry with bringing this up.

The present DNA tests available to us can only really confirm if varieties are different, not if they are the same.

With that said, I do plan to grow Black Madeira, Figo Preto, Violeta, and "Black Fig from Madeira" near one another and compare them over time. I will probably never make the claim that they are the same, though, just how similar I think they are.

[Kelby]

I'm not speaking for Bob here, but I don't think this is meant to be an authoritarian, definitive type of thing. It is helpful to people to say "Hey, several of us grew X and Y side by side, they seem to be the same variety or very similar". I find it helpful to know in avoiding having too many similar figs.

I totally understand where you are coming from and I don't think this should be taken as gospel by anyone. I would think no one is going to declare YOUR fig X is the same as MY fig Y because I grew both and they were the same in my yard. Short of DNA testing it can't really be done, and then there is the mislabeling problem where my Celeste turns out to be Brunswick and I shared cuttings with everyone saying it's Celeste (hypothetically).

A good example, people have stated that Niagara Black is quite similar to or the same as LdA. Well, I have a small LdA and being limited on space, I'll pass on Niagara Black for the time being.

[drphil69]

Kelby, that is exactly how I use the information. DNA would be the only definitive method. The best we can say on this forum (unless someone gets DNA analysis done) is to say they are very similar and likely the same.

[Darkman]

The present DNA tests available to us can only really confirm if varieties are different, not if they are the same.

Why is that? I do not know alot about DNA for plants but if it can match people what is the problem with figs?

[HarveyC]

No DNA test is done to test ever evaluates all of the markers and there is no set protocol on what markers to check to set as a standard for determining major characteristics between varieties. A few years ago there were only 360 gene sequences on file with the international genbank. Last fall I saw that because of work being done in Japan and Israel that there were then over 17,000 gene sequences (Japan was evaluating differences between common and caprifigs while Israel was evaluating Brown Turkey, though reasons for doing so was not evident). I've discussed this with a geneticist friend of mine who has helped me understand this a bit. The testing done at USDA Davis used a method involving SSRs which is considered to be an old style and it just used a limited number of markers. My friend told me that most genetic work is done with plants that involve seed sales since that is where money is made by the companies. Since we easily propagate figs from our own cuttings, there's not much money to be made with figs.

So, if you're only testing a small percentage of the DNA sequences and you get two samples that match, how does that tell you anything about the huge percentage of sequences that were not tested?

[Darkman]

Thanks! I think. LOL

Due to climatological differences, nourishment and other factors even if they said two figs were identical we would probably see and taste differences.

[AscPete]

IMO, There are many benefits in growing out and documenting "similar" cultivars. It definitely will help to reduce the confusion...
The same "data" that USDA-GRIN collects for their fig cultivars can be collected and posted for these cultivars for comparisons. Simply noting the "name" of your cultivars source and documenting the trees (Leaves and figs) with photos throughout the season will be the documentation. The Our Figs Varieties List and Unknown Varieties List can be a "database" for that info.

The "Synonym list" was simply compiling, repeating or duplicating the information that was already widely available on the internet and IMO has limited practical benefit.

This reminds me of the Old discussions about fig flavor profiles and "Fig Flavor Groups" at F4F. The discussions were started before my time, but I've come to rely on the Flavor Groups as a means of selecting cultivars to grow. Although every fig may have a different "taste" they can still be placed in one of the Six (6) flavor groups, which for all practical purpose means that you would only need to grow 6 fig trees

[Darkman]

Ok. The Sugar and Honey I understand but which one is the intense (like a fig newton) FIGGY flavor? The Bordeaux?

and

what is the difference between Adriactic BERRY and Dark BERRY?

What are the qualifiers for Exotic?

[AscPete]

Charles,
A detailed explanation, http://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-ho...-flavor-groups

[Rafaelissimmo]

Charles the fig newton is a Calimyrna, or Smyrna type pollinated fig, hence the seed crunch.

[Altadena Mara]

Perhaps something else going on here with the duplication of many varieties of figs is the reality of government import restrictions and how widely they’re broken. How many times have I read: “I obtained this cutting from the tree of a little old lady (soldier, sailor, tinker, etc.) from ______(fill in the country) whose _____ (father, mother, grandfather, etc.) brought it here 100 years ago." The tree “just happens” to be the same as a popular variety in a foreign country but it's given a new name. Yes, it’s true that people find old heirloom trees all the time, but it’s also true that importing popular varieties legally from foreign countries is a lot of work. It’s so much easier to say about the new cuttings from questionable sources: “I just happened to find it” and give it a new name.

[drphil69]

Yes, always be weary that not everyone is honest.

[Posturedoc]

Oh goodie! A thread on figs that sews at least as much confusion as it clears up (I've never seen Angelique and Abebereira named in the same sentence as VdB, Beers Black, Vista and the usual suspects in that group). My contribution:

While I haven't fruited them yet, Kubota wrote "Stella and Vasilika Sika Bs" are part of a grouping, to which White Greek and Dalmatie should be added. Of the four, I only have Stella and White Greek, so I won't be able to add my unassailable, iron clad guarantee that the four might or might not be the same figs once my two fruit, hopefully this year.

Contribution B: White TX Everbearing from the Davis repository and Peter's Honey from Burnt Ridge Nursery are exactly the same fig in the 89509, and I don't need a DNA test to confirm it (unassailable and iron clad, remember?).

Okay, out of lame witticisms for now. Somebody else take it from here.