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  • Ficus Palmata fig?

    Wikipedia says it is the wild cousin of the domesticated Ficus Carica and grows much larger and more vigorously. It grows wild in the Himalayas.
    It appears to be graft compatible with Carica and extremely vigorous to boot.

    Some nurseries appear to be using this as rootstock for grafted figs. Is anyone here doing this?

  • #2
    I found these old posts on GW from Herman that claimed that Palmata is FMV resistant and figs that are Palmata X Carica are also FMV resistant. (such as Alma)

    http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussi...fig-trees?n=22

    http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1882055/ficus-palmata-and-its-hybrids?n=14



    I wonder how grafting a highly diseased variety (such as Ischia Black) on top of Palmata stock would do. Palmata appears to be a fairly standard rootstock in Asia for Carica.

    Comment


    • YATAMA
      YATAMA commented
      Editing a comment
      Does anyone know how cold tolerant palmata is?I see palmata scionwood is offered from GRIN Davis ,several selections.Wonder if it would be more vigorus than BT for rootstock?May like to tryit as experiment here if can take zone 8a winter.Thanks for the suggestion,amazing wealth of knowledge on this forum!(your knowledge,not mine!)

    • ramv
      ramv commented
      Editing a comment
      This is a good question. I read in one link that it was hardy to 7b. But I don't know if that means root or shoot.

  • #3
    You've got me searching for more info on F. palmate now! Thank you for starting this thread. If no one has tried the grafting experiment one of us definitely should.
    Greg, Maine, zone 5. Wish List: Green Michurinska

    Comment


    • #4
      I almost bought one to try as rootstock but I think the link referred to crossing Ficus palmata with a fig tree infected with GMV rather than grafting to it. Anyone have thoughts on this? The plant is only 18$ but shipping was expensive.
      Kim. Columbia MO zone 6a

      Comment


      • MidMOfigs
        MidMOfigs commented
        Editing a comment
        meant FMV

      • ramv
        ramv commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes that link only referred to Palmata crosses. But it is a common rootstock for Carica grafts in India.

    • #5
      The Egyptian fig Fayumi is also a palmata x carica breed. It has beautiful leaves and actually ripens a few figs for me with no greenhouse and shows no sign of FMD.
      Now you got me thinking since this fig is also FMV resistant I can also use it for grafting!
      The caveat may be that if the scion is already infected it may not make a difference.
      Pino, Niagara, Zone 6, WL; variegated figs, breba producers & suggestions welcome
      Breba photos / Main crop fig photos

      Comment


      • #6
        I am also wondering about graft compatibility of ficus in general. My understanding is that generally all plants within the same genus are graft compatible. Sometimes grafting is even possible across genus. (like pears on quince rootstock)
        While there are literally 100s of apple rootstocks for all kinds of conditions, not much research appears to have gone into fig grafting, specifically rootstock choice. There are numerous fig varieties, some of which are the fastest growing and largest trees in the world. Many of them might be candidate root stocks.

        With several diseased and slow growing varieties (with Ischia Black UCD being the canonical example), possibly some vigor can be transferred from aggressive rootstocks especially ones that are FMV resistant.

        Of course the scion will still be infected but hopefully much more vigorous.

        Comment


        • DrDraconian
          DrDraconian commented
          Editing a comment
          I'd be very surprised to see that comment from HarveyC. He has shown several plants that he has grafted to brown Turkey and other roots stocks, and generally recommends it for slow growing varieties. He has a video of his orchard where he shows a grafted Black Madeira and a standard Black Madeira side by side, and the grafted one is at least 5 times the size with many more fruit.

        • GregMartin
          GregMartin commented
          Editing a comment
          Any idea if HarveyC sees any difference in fig quality with the rapid growing BM vs the pokey one?

        • grasshopper
          grasshopper commented
          Editing a comment
          I can't remember for certain where I read that from. Harvey used BT at the beginning but I think he also used panache. We would find out when he check the forum next time.

      • #7
        Who is selling Palmata?
        Zone 10b, Coastal. Wish List: Aurora, Deos Negra, Siggiu Russo, Mendeza, Ischia Black, Boreal, Sodus Sicilian, Sangue Dolce, Col Lit BC; Long Yellow

        Comment


        • #8
          I acquired Alma in part to use as a rootstock but haven't gotten around to trying it yet. Using Ficus Palmata (as opposed to a hybrid like Alma) as rootstock might work even better. Thanks for starting the thread.
          Steve
          D-i-c-k-e-r-s-o-n, MD; zone 7a
          WL: Zaffiro, Black Donov, Izmir Texas Peach, Campaniere, St. Martin

          Comment


          • #9
            Alma is frost sensitive. I read one TX gardening recommendation not to plant it beyond 200 miles from the Gulf of Mexico. But I am sure our members have figured out a way to plant them

            Los Angeles, CA, zone 10b

            Comment


            • #10
              I got several alma to use as rootstock this year. They’ve been outdoors through freezing weather unprotected . I think they can easily take 20-25F.

              Comment


              • #11
                Well, at least that debunks the frost sensitive part. Ram, you have a milder winter compare to Steve in 7a. It would be interesting to see how cold Alma or Palmata can handle.

                Los Angeles, CA, zone 10b

                Comment


                • #12
                  Years back a fig enthusiast named Gene Hosey had a large fig orchard in southern MD that I had access to. I think there it is zone 7b. Anyway, I noted that Alma seemed to be quite cold hardy compared to other varieties. However, I did not collect cuttings from that particular Alma tree. The orchard is gone now. A few years later I got interested in collecting Alma and got cuttings from Frank in Florida. I planted my young Alma tree in ground last Spring. It is protected to a limited degree. It will be interesting to see how it does. In the Spring I'll probably put up a post which documents how all of the in-ground varieties tolerated the cold, including Alma.
                  Last edited by Rewton; 01-12-2018, 03:52 PM.
                  Steve
                  D-i-c-k-e-r-s-o-n, MD; zone 7a
                  WL: Zaffiro, Black Donov, Izmir Texas Peach, Campaniere, St. Martin

                  Comment


                  • Rewton
                    Rewton commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I now have a pretty good handle on much cold damage my in-ground trees sustained this past winter. As I had hoped, it appears that Alma is more cold resistant than most of my varieties.

                  • grasshopper
                    grasshopper commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Wow, that is unexpected and is a pleasant surprise. A cold tolerant, disease resistant (FMV/Nematodes) fig is a great combo.

                  • Rewton
                    Rewton commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Another year has gone by and I can comment again on Alma cold hardiness. Given how it did this past year, it is probably more accurate that it has about average to slightly better than average cold hardiness.

                • #13
                  This post initially got me reading...and there is a guy here in Florida who has tried grafting the common fig onto other different ficus species. His results with Palmata indicate Palmata was just as prone to nematodes...but I question whether he truly got Ficus Palmata because the Palmata pics in his blog don't seem to resemble the leaf shape of what Palmata should look like.

                  He has had some success with Ficus Pumila (more of a vine type ficus).

                  He wants to try grafting on to a Sycamore Fig root stuck but can't seem to obtain cuttings. I personally would like to try this as well.

                  Below is his initial blog

                  https://floridafruitgeek.com/2015/12...ress-report-1/

                  Below is an update with his Pumila experience:

                  https://floridafruitgeek.com/2017/10...-ficus-pumila/

                  Both are really good reads.

                  Comment


                • #14
                  I bought a Palmata from Plant Delights 2 months ago.

                  http://www.plantdelights.com/product...palmata-icebox

                  Comment


                  • Rewton
                    Rewton commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I jumped on the bandwagon and just ordered one too! Time will tell how cold hardy it is.

                  • GregMartin
                    GregMartin commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'm experimenting with this one as well along side you guys. That one has a nice story.

                • #15
                  Really interesting thread. Odd how I came across it as it's actually still quite new. After learning about a few Ficus Carica/Palmata hybrids that are actually quite tasty and WILL make it into circulation within a couple years, I thought I do some digging and found this thread. I had a strong hunch that a variety I was sent was something we haven't seen before. I didn't think much of it at first, but after seeing photos of a hybrid on Facebook the other day called, "Iraqi" I thought about this new fig I was sent. It just behaves differently and has an odd look to it. Similar to Iraqi. It almost looks alien-like
                  Produces two figs per node. 1-3 lobed leaves like a Palmata. Cold hardy. Early. Common. It's from a mountainous and quite cold region of Iran. Successfully fruited here in VA. See the photos of all 3 hybrids here: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...xrNzN4X2JTU3FB

                  Additionally, through my limited asking around/research it seems like Alma is indeed vigorous and FMV immune. I've been told it doesn't like small pots because of how vigorous it is. This makes a lot of sense to me as we should be interested in healthy, but slower growing rootstock for pots & healthy/vigorous rootstock for in ground trees in warmer places. I don't think grafting in ground here is a great idea as you're likely to lose everything above the graft on a 2-5 year basis. Alma is supposed to be somewhat hardy, but only at an older age.. getting to that age in ground here may be problematic. As Rewton is alluding to, this would be a great experiment, but I fear for only in ground purposes. What's worse is that Ficus Palmata is by my understanding significantly less hardy that Carica, so the hybrid would have to inherit the genes of Carica for hardiness + need to be hardier than other non hybrid Ficus Carica to warrant using them as in ground rootstock here. Ugh.

                  The most interesting point of this whole thread was about nematodes. There's got to be someone in the community that knows how well Alma does with nematodes in FL. For now.. not my concern, but really worth talking about.

                  What's getting me now is what other benefits does fig rootstock provide. Vigor is certainly one and I'm not sure we can definitively say anything else yet.
                  Zone 7A - Philadelphia
                  Flavor Profiles & Variety List / Facebook / YouTube / Blog

                  Comment


                  • GregMartin
                    GregMartin commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Ross, there are two populations of figs called F. palmata. The cold hardy ones are those from the Himalayas. Any idea how low a temperature your new hybrid from Iran is?

                    I wonder if the hardiness genes found in carica, afganistanica, and Himalayan palmatas are the same or different. If different then perhaps the hybrids could be hardier than any of the parents? Perhaps some individuals from F2 and later generations could be more so still?
                    Last edited by GregMartin; 01-19-2018, 11:51 AM.

                • #16
                  Since Pino said FAYUMI is PalmataXCarica cross, I got Fayumi cuttings which have rooted easily and leafed out fine.BUT one cutting has a large leaf with deformity and discoloration strongly suggestive of FMV The other two Fayumi cuttings do not display this as of now We had planned to evaluate as rootstock ,Allegedly it is a most popular fig in Egypt and sometimes called by another name there,Anyone know more about Fayumi?
                  Z8A NC SANDHILLS

                  WISH LIST :CC, ZAFFIRO, CAMPANIERE

                  Comment


                  • #17
                    GregMartin This is where is from. At a very high altitude. Not sure on exact numbers. If you look at my photos album, it's of the first 6-7 photos.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Zone 7A - Philadelphia
                    Flavor Profiles & Variety List / Facebook / YouTube / Blog

                    Comment


                    • #18
                      http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...722967.html?9=

                      Things to note (those growing the Alma can help) :

                      1.all palmata*carica crosses show some hairy fig skin and hairy fig flowers which are a dominant phenotype of the Palmata types. the Pure carica's are clean of hairs.
                      I dont grow Alma but I have some fig varieties that show the hairy stuff.

                      2.all palmata*carica crosses show a dominant fingered leafs like in the Carica.

                      3. the Palmata crossed show less leaf shedding during the fall which might open a way to fruit production for more time. (palmata is evergreen).
                      Location: Israel, Zone 10 equivalent.
                      Growing: Sbayi, Hmari, Niagara, Black Portugal, Torres, Rei , CDD's.
                      Wish list: Family varieties. Grise st jean,

                      Comment


                      • m5allen
                        m5allen commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Wonder why they cross these 2 varieties in Israel? Shouldn't be much of a cold weather problem, right? Are there nematodes in the soil?

                    • #19
                      That looks like a pretty good spot Ross!
                      Greg, Maine, zone 5. Wish List: Green Michurinska

                      Comment


                      • ross
                        ross commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Oh nice. Didn't know they had a hardiness zone map for the middle east. Zone 6. Not too bad.

                      • GregMartin
                        GregMartin commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Really good! If you ever want to know how it does in zone 5 Maine I am ready to help

                      • GregMartin
                        GregMartin commented
                        Editing a comment
                        If there's any chance that you can get your hands on the wild figs (seeds or cuttings) that grow in the Iranian mountains that reach -40F then we really need to talk. Would really like to do some fig breeding with those genetics.

                    • #20
                      Alma is supposedly hardy to Zone 7. I got my trees from a nursery in Oregon that grows them and the grower said they are hardy to well below 10F.
                      It is though extremely vigorous and does have a tendency to get rootbound.

                      Comment


                      • #21
                        Did a nice little video on Palmata and it's hybrids:

                        Zone 7A - Philadelphia
                        Flavor Profiles & Variety List / Facebook / YouTube / Blog

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                      • #22
                        Have been looking into palmata's and palmata hybrids and find lots of scattered information. I find them very interesting and the growth traits are amazing. Ross' research regarding RKN is cool and I really wonder if palmate is resistant to disease. More importantly, we need a list of fruiting varieties. I've found Alma, Iraqi and Hava Fayumi. DFIC0023 needs the wasp so no good for northeast except as rootstock. Anyone know of any others?
                        Danny; NYC Z7b

                        List safe. Bid safe. figBid.com

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                        • #23
                          My Palmata (DFIC 0023) died over our mild winter where we did not even go below 25F. That makes it unsuitable as rootstock for most of the country.

                          Comment


                          • nycfig
                            nycfig commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I wonder if anyone has grafted onto it.

                          • ramv
                            ramv commented
                            Editing a comment
                            It was the rootstock for a Black Madeira tree I purchased from Just fruits and exotics. The BM tree also died earlier. They told me that they were using Palmata due to RKN resistance. But were planning to switch out possibly to LSU purple because Palmata is too cold sensitive.
                            Last edited by ramv; 03-19-2018, 05:44 PM.

                          • nycfig
                            nycfig commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Sorry to hear that.

                        • #24
                          I just ordered the Palmata from PlantDelights.com. Ficus palmata 'Icebox'. Can anyone say how it's doing for them?

                          https://www.plantdelights.com/produc...palmata-icebox
                          Danny; NYC Z7b

                          List safe. Bid safe. figBid.com

                          Comment


                          • nycfig
                            nycfig commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Harvey's DFIC0023?

                          • ramv
                            ramv commented
                            Editing a comment
                            This is what Harvey writes about DFIC0023

                            This is an unusual variety, a palmata hybrid from the USDA collection designated as DFIC0023. I believe it is somewhat cold sensitive and it died to the ground here in USDA zone 9b one winter (2013-2014) when we had about 45 nights with frost. No damage in winters since then, however.

                          • Rewton
                            Rewton commented
                            Editing a comment
                            nycfig, it is the cold hardiness issue that is giving me 2nd thoughts. I was thinking of using it as rootstock for in-ground figs but I agree it would make more sense in a container.

                        • #25
                          Perhaps this should be a new thread but, I'm confused on Alma. Many have said that its hardy. Texas A&M said its best within 200 miles of the gulf coast. Dr. Powell at Petals from the Past also states that it is very cold sensitive. He showed us extensive freeze damage (compared to the other varieties), while touring the orchard a few years ago. Any other anecdotal info out there?

                          Comment


                          • Rewton
                            Rewton commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I will know in a few weeks how mine did in ground with moderate protection. We got down to around +5 deg F for about 3 nights in a row in January.

                          • nycfig
                            nycfig commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Do you have any pics of leaves/fruit from last season?

                          • Rewton
                            Rewton commented
                            Editing a comment
                            My Alma didn't fruit last season. It froze to the ground but came back and produced a large (over 6 foot) bush but no fruit. I'm hoping it will fruit this year (since it had somewhat less cold damage and is more mature) though I expect it to be late. If it doesn't fruit this year I will probably remove it.
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