Graft Effect on Cold Hardiness Experiment Protocol, Free BMKK ,need Volunteers

[YATAMA]

Heres Protcol for the experiment discussed previously 5 best reports get free BMKK Air Layer from a member after study complete.
Concept, graft nero600m To cold hardy Florea rootstock next spring , plant in ground along with Ungrafted Florea, and nero 600M. grow all summer,measure limb and main trunk height after leaf fall, measure amount of limb and trunk death after the winter, limb and trunk labelled with the data and also kept on paper so percent of dead wood can be calculated for each of 3 plants. Photos made at every stage. Cuttings available of needed figs sent free to 5 particiants to root or store for next spring graft,who pay only postage for them..Whatever happens participants get few cuttings , and possibly a free BMKK after study concluded.
Heres Protocol;( please adhere to it,no substitutions) for growers zone 7 and 8 ONLY ,prefer growers with successful fig rooting and grafting experience1. RECEIVE FREE CUTTINGS , ROOT 2 FLOREA, 1NERO 600M BEGINNING IMMEDIATELY, SAVE 1 NERO 600M CUTTING IN FRIDGE TO GRAFT IN SPRING.

2 NEXT SPRING PLANT 1 FLOREA IN GROUND UNGRAFTED, 1 NERO 600 IN GROUND UNGRAFTED, 1 FLOREA IN GROUND WITH NERO600 SCION GRAFTED ON IT IMMEDIATELY ABOVE GROUND LEVEL BY WHIP OR CLEFT GRAFT. PLANTS TO BE IN OPEN GROUND AND WATERED NORMALLY, FERTILIZED ONLY WITH FULL STRENGTH MIRACLE GROW EVERY 2 WEEKS AFTER PLANTING UNTIL JULY 14,NO FERTILIZER AFTER THAT.LET TREE GROW MAIN TRUNK BUT PRUNE OFF ANY BUT 3 BRANCHES ON EACH TREE.LET TREES REMAIN UNPROTECTED IN OPEN ALL WINTER

3 PHOTOGRAPH AT PLANTING , AFTER LEAF FALL, AND NEXT SPRING AFTER ANY LEAF BUDS SURVIVE AND MAKE TINY LEAVES.AFTER LEAF FALL, MEAS URE TRUNK HEIGHT, AND LENGTH OF EACH OF THE 3 BRANCHES ALLOWED TO GROW,AFTER THE WINTER ALSO MEASURE THE LENGTH OR MAIN TRUNK AND BRANCHES THAT ARE STILL ALIVE DEMONSTRATED SO BY MAKING LEAF BUDS THAT OPEN.
REPORT THE ABOVE DATA IN NEAT FORMAT BY PM TO ME AS WELL AS POST FOR EVERYONE TO SEE IF YOU WISH.

ANYTHING THAT SURVIVES IS YOURS, AND BEST 5 REPORTS,(WHATEVER RESULTS) GET A FREE AIR LAYER BMKK ANOTHER MEMBER SAYS WILL DONATE TO YOU( MAYBE WORTH 200 BUCKS?)

MEMBERS WISHING TO VOLUNTEER PLEASE SIGN UP BY PM TO ME ASAP. DEADLINE TO SIGN UP IS 1 DECEMBER,SOONER IS BEST SO CAN GET FREE CUTTINGS TO FIRST 5 TO GET ROOTING STARTED ASAP. AFTER 5 OTHERS CAN PARTICIPATE USING THEIR OWN CUTTINGS
GOOD LUCK! ( ANYONE WISHING TO RUN A DIFFERENT EXPERIMENT, GO FOR IT! THIS IS OUR VERSION) SO SECOND SPRING FROM NOW RESULTS SHOULD BE IN.

[jrdewhirst]

See my post in the other related thread. Cuttings are ready.

[YATAMA]

Appreciate response, now cuttings required will also be provided to volunteers POSTAGE FREE as well;
WE HAVE ROOM AND CUTTINGS FOR A FEW MORE VOLUNTEERS WHO CAN ROOT CUTTINGS AND GRAFT AND WANT TO TRY FOR A FREE BMKK AIR LAYER AND ARE IN ZONE 7 OR 8

[jrdewhirst]

Postage is the least of the possible costs incurred by the volunteers. This will be work!

[YATAMA]

I find it hard to regard rooting and grafting a bunch of fig plants hard work, considering what I have to do to provide grocery store food and housing for the family!

[YATAMA]

Got couple new people signed up, and still have room for several more with grfting and rooting experience as we recieved more donated free cuttngs than we had expected from benefactors.Want in, send PM.

[WVMJack]

Just saw this paper referenced in NAFEX on genome exchange in grafted plants https://phys.org/news/2016-01-grafted-genomes.html

[YATAMA]

Interesting and unexpected. One must wonder what effect a human tissuetransplant like heart, lung, liver, kidney has on thr other tissues in the recipient's body!Or does te principle discussed only apply to certain plants? Also another interesting question is whether theres any transfer of genetically influencing substances across placentas in pregnant animals? We know antibodies cross.

[WVMJack]

I have always seen it mentioned by old timers that it was better to buy trees from a colder zone than you are in as the trees will be tougher than more southern trees all else being the same, rootstock, scion etc. It may be that when grown in the colder zone the rootstocks are sending some of the epigenetic signals to the scion to prepare them to be cold. I cant say I have seen a difference, I get most of my trees from NY though the ones from the Carolinas grew very well here in 6b. It will be interesting if some fig rootstock sends some signals to the top to get ready for it to be cold. Another version of this experiment would be to use a FMV resistant interstem on a FMV clean but susceptible variety, maybe from some tissue culture plants.

[YATAMA]

Pick up the ball and run with it.

Well I believe it has been demonstrated with some plants that the strains that are native to a location grow better than ones imported from afar. Ths s especially true with commercial pine forestry techology and seed or seedilng suppliers specify the locations their different strains of for example longleaf white, or slash pines are from. Clearly the pines have some different genetics in different originations, bt this is genetic and not some adaptation a tree makes after being planted in a certain zone.
I would suspect that for example celeste figs had existed a few million years and got spread around over many latitudes the ones from more northern zones might have been genetically different enough concerning cold hardiess to perform differently from one zone to another. But for figs humans have been taking a specific cultivar and disseminating it in many climactic zones over provably only a few hudred years so the existing cultivars have not yer mutated enough in varied zones to have developed specific adaptations. WE have figs here that were grown just a generation ago in the middle east or Sicily and are trying them in ground in New Jersey! and as the common figs are not grown fromfertile seed, such regional genetic variants would have to been derived from "sports' or plant material that mutated genetically while growing on t's "mother plant". Would take lots of time. But consider the "sports" of theRed Delicious apple that developed over only a century , were identifiesd, selected and disseminated by people who recognized the sport bore some characteristic different from themother tree.

[YATAMA]

Now everyone who volunteered to participate(root plant in ground, graft, observe and record/report data) has been sent their cuttings(2 Florea, 2 nero 600M) we can still use more participants with rooting and grafting experience.I see loads of members who comment on their fine results using those skills and we'd love to have you on the team if in Zt or Z8.. could especially use volunteers in Loiusiana, Washington, Oregon,TX,MS,Al,GA. to get geographic/climactic diversity.

[jrdewhirst]

LOL. It was 5 each (not two). Underpromise then overdeliver! But I've got more Florea wood and have access to more Nero 600 M. So the message stands.

[SeattleFigs]

i have nero 600 and florea but im not much of a grafter. im glad you guys are doing these experiments im curious to know results!

[YATAMA]

superb I did notwant new people to expect more than is possible but suspect we have all people in who are coming. Interesting but expected. Hope wx ameliorates a bit there, gotta visit carpet dumpster again soon here to get more materiel. lots of frst year babies in ground here, one is 7 feet tall!

[YATAMA]

OK experimenters, you got the cuttings so here is the protocol again. Personally suggest rooting the cuttings in POPS as seems easier for most of us but those skilled in other techniques are welcome to run with the ball that way ,too. We may learn something and everyone comes out with some free plants whatever happens!

[Nick Costanza]

How many people are doing the experiment?

[jrdewhirst]

I'm aware of 5.

[cepeders]

After the first winter I am afraid my trees won't help much in answering this question. All 6 of mine died back to the ground last winter despite a pretty mild winter. That killed the two grafted trees at both of my locations. I added some pictures and more details here: https://tinkerbugfigs.com/experiment...old-hardiness/

Did anyone else have better luck last winter?

[jrdewhirst]

Wow, that's a rough outcome after all that great work.

I guess you know one thing for sure -- a 1st year Florea rootstock is not winter hardy. (;

FWIW, I have a mature Florea in the ground and it does great but here but only with good winter protection. I know one grower in Z5B and I've given it to 2 friends in 5B/6A, all of whom tried to grow it in the ground unprotected, all without success. Die-back to the ground is the usual result.

My typical winter low here is <0 F (i.e., 0 to -5 F). I assume that yours is slightly higher in NJ and considerably higher in VA. I'm reasonably confident that a mature Florea would survive 10 F (VA?) unprotected but 0-5 F (NJ?) may be borderline.

So, I have a two suggestions::

1. Grow the trees in pots for 2 seasons with protected winter storage, then plant in ground.

2. Plant the trees in-ground but add winter protection for 2 seasons.

I wish I had a suggestion that (a) doesn't require 3 years for a result, and (b) doesn't risk the ultimate loss of the trees, But I don't. I guess that a test of cold hardiness inevitably means killing a lot of trees.

[jrdewhirst]

YATAMA -- I agree with your 1st statement except it sound like even the above-ground Florea trunk was killed. cepeders -- Is that right?

So even the young Florea section of the tree was vulnerable.

[cepeders]

jrdewhirst Correct, all 6 trees died back to the ground (I guess very close to the ground is more accurate, but still in a sheltered area covered in grass over the winter).

[YATAMA]

It's called"live &learn time"! For me that means every day. and you guys the professors!

[Nick Costanza]

I could not complete the experiment. The cuttings grew fine for awhile but all the florea cuttings died on me. probaly not using the best potting mix for the cuttings. The nero 600 plant i manged to grow died over this winter

[cepeders]

I agree we can conclude that 1st year trees are pretty vulnerable. To reinforce that observation I had about 60 other trees in the same field in VA and the only ones that did not die back to very close to the ground were all over 3 years old. All the trees going into their second winter died back to ground. The 4 trees on the south side of my parents' house and barn barely had any die back, they are all between 4 and 8 years old.

In NJ I typically get down to about 0. In VA it is about 10.

I will protect my trees in NJ and try a graft again next spring to see if I can repeat the experiment after a few years of growing out. I don't have much hope in NJ though, trees die back to the ground here most winters too if they are not protected.

[ncdabbler]

Here are my three trees for the "graft effect on cold hardiness" experiment on Oct 21, 2020. Florea on the left (about 4ft tall). Nero 600m grafted onto Florea rootstock in the center (about 6ft tall). Nero 600m on the right (also about 6ft tall). All three have produced ripe fruit this fall. A larger LSU Purple is behind these three trees, between the grafted tree and the Nero 600m The average first hard frost here is on Halloween. YATAMA, jrdewhirst - I plan to prune after leaf fall, and I have a pruning protocol question. Since the center tree only ever grew two branches, should I prune all three of them to two branches?

[jrdewhirst]

I wouldn't hack the other two trees just because Nero 600M has only two long branches. Prune them all as you would normally. I doubt that pruning has much impact on cold hardiness anyway.

You might want to leave some extra growth in case of cold damage. You can prune again in early spring after you see what survives the winter.

[ncdabbler]

That sounds good to me. I agree that the trees don't necessarily need pruning now, but I wanted to follow the experimental protocol, or at least get some feedback from the experiment's designers before I deviated from their instructions. I think the rationale for leaving only three branches was to make the dieback comparisons between the trees simpler and more straightforward. Maybe the pruning instructions were intended to be done throughout the summer to maintain just three branches throughout. At this point, I wonder if heavily pruning the florea and light-to-no pruning on the other two trees would simply introduce an additional variable. I suppose I can simply measure all the surviving branches and compare the percentage of total dieback for each tree. YATAMA, and jrdewhirst, does that sound reasonable?

[YATAMA]

Well Dabbler.You are apparently onlyone of us who got all 3 trees to grow and survive.looks like your location had mild enough winter that the grafting concept did not gettested at your site.maybe this winter will be colder .personally doubt matters what pruning chosen long as only wood above the graft is reserved on grafted tree, here we prefer tothin ort trees so sun can hit all the branches we leave on tree and not too bushy.

those figs on grafted tree look neat, are any going to ripen before frost?

[ncdabbler]

Sorry for not being clear - these trees were grafted in early 2020 (I need to check my notes for the exact date) and planted in May 2020. I got cuttings rooted in early 2019, but I wasn't successful in grafting onto my newly rooted cuttings. So I grew them out in pots the first year and then had a much easier time grafting onto an established rootstock this year just as it was coming out of dormancy. So these trees haven't been in the ground over the winter yet. I'm late, but I still wanted to give this experiment a try. In 2019, we had a nice, warm fall and then had an abrupt hard freeze that I think did a number on lots of fig trees that hadn't even started going dormant yet. This fall has been much cooler, and lots of my other figs have already started dropping leaves. I'm hoping these will start getting sleepy before we get any freezing weather, and maybe this year will be a slightly different test of cold hardiness if the trees are fully dormant by the time the real cold hits. I've had a few figs off of each, and I would imagine I'll get a few more but I doubt most of the figs you see in the picture will ripen in the cooler weather.

[jrdewhirst]

ncdabbler --
Congrats! Your experiment is progressing beautifully.

So I owe you an air layer of BM kk. I don't have one handy -- this report took me by surprise -- so I'll give you a choice (1) wait until next summer; I should be able to deliver a well-rooted AL by early July;, or (2) takes 5-6 cuttings as soon as I prune, likely 2-3 weeks. As the cuttings may not root, I'll offer the AL as a backup to the cuttings -- i.e., if all the BM kk cuttings fail I'll send an AL.

So you pick -- (1) cuttings now or (2) AL later?

[ncdabbler]

Thanks for your generous offer, but I'm actually not that interested in BM kk. I already have too many late figs that produce marginally in Z7, including Preto. You've already sent me the Florea cuttings and Nero 600m cuttings, plus a bonus Moscatel Preto cutting that has also grown quickly into a nice potted tree. So I feel more than adequately rewarded for my efforts, and I just want to see this experiment through after my delayed start.

[jrdewhirst]

OK, but as far as I'm concerned, I owe you one. So you have an IOU that you can use when you get the urge.

[tyronegenade]

Here are my three trees for the "graft effect on cold hardiness" experiment on Oct 21, 2020... I plan to prune after leaf fall, and I have a pruning protocol question. Since the center tree only ever grew two branches, should I prune all three of them to two branches?

Thinking ahead, if I recall correctly, the critical question was whether the Nero on Florea (NoF) leafs out and begins to fruit sooner than the plain Nero, not just whether the NoF survives the winter better.

I am in a zone somewhere on the cusp of 6 and 7, so if we want to give this experiment another sample for comparison in a slightly colder climate I can volunteer some space, but I have no experience with grafting so I would need to get grafted trees sent to me in the spring.

Bye

[ncdabbler]

I have one extra backup Nero 600m grafted onto Florea in a 5 gal pot, but it's 3 ft tall and probably pretty expensive to ship at this point.

[YATAMA]

tyrone, if you can slice a steak, tie your shoes, use a saw, you can also GRAFT! My first time worked fine so will your first time. Get a florea cutting, root it and graft it like shown on you tube by our portugese colleague Jascadera maybe misspelled!you can get th e nero 600 and florea cuttings from folks here to use. also shippin a 3 foot fig tree thats dormant and fully bare rooted is not expensive at all.

[tyronegenade]

Thanks, I will give it a try when I have material.

[ncdabbler]

Final results from the "graft effect on cold hardiness" experiment are in. The Florea control had no die back at all. Here you can see the new leaves at the tips of every branch. I took the picture before last night's frost nipped a lot of the newest leaves.



The Nero 600m control died back to within an inch or so of the ground. In the close up picture, you can see the white dead wood with bark peeling off of it. The bark at the soil level looks healthy, and a scratch test showed it is still alive.


The Nero 600m grafted on Florea also died back to within an inch or so of the ground. The graft is about an inch below the fork in the branches in the close up picture, and the dead wood extends a few inches below the graft.


This past fall (2020), the weather was ideal for initiating dormancy in figs, with a gradual cooling of temperatures with no dramatic drops below freezing. By the time the first freeze occurred, all my fig trees had already lost their leaves and hardened off. The winter was also relatively mild by central NC (Zone 7B) standards - the lowest temperature I recorded was 19 deg F. Conclusions based on this small sample - grafting a less hardy fig cultivar (Nero 600m) to a more hardy fig rootstock (Florea) imparts no additional cold hardiness to the scion. The fact that the Florea rootstock of the grafted tree died back a few inches below the graft while the control Florea tree experienced no dieback at all might indicate that grafting Nero 600m to the Florea rootstock actually made the rootstock more susceptible to cold damage.

[It Could use another day]

Was there an age difference? Kind of hard to believe a known cold tolerant variety like n600 died back to the ground in NC. thanks for remembering to update us

[ncdabbler]

I rooted the original cuttings for all three trees in early 2019, but my grafts on the newly rooted cuttings failed. So I grew them in pots until early spring of 2020, grafted again and was successful on more established Florea rootstocks just coming out of dormancy. Then I planted the trees as soon as the threat of frost had passed in May 2020. So the three trees are all the same age. Nero 600m is a VdB type, and I haven't found my other VdB types to be particularly cold hardy in the ground, even with older trees during relatively mild winters like this past one. I have two more established VdB type trees growing unprotected in the ground, and they always die back fairly close to the ground. They always survive the winter and regrow enough to produce a partial crop before the end of the season. I personally think the VdB types are better to grow in pots in Zone 7 because the breba crop is as good as the main crop, and they produce a lot of brebas.

[It Could use another day]

I've read a few posts and n600 doesn't seem as hardy as once thought, I was thinking about putting a vdb in ground but I may have to reconsider. Thanks again for the wisdom

[Rewton]

Thanks for posting the results. They seem pretty conclusive. As an aside, I'm also surprised Nero 600m died back nearly to the ground in your climate. I have a Nero 600m in ground in zone 7a and it had no die back after two or three nights down to around 18 degrees or so. Mine is older though.

[ncdabbler]

That's good to know! Do you have any other VdB types in ground? I need to give the Nero 600m more time in the ground to compare.

[Rewton]

Yes, I have two different strains of Violette de Bordeaux in the ground here as well. One of them had no die back at all (and lots of breba). The other had a little die-back on a couple trunks but no die- back on the others. Those have also been in the ground 4 winters.

[ncdabbler]

Okay, that's helpful. I wonder if VdB types are more sensitive than others to late frosts, because there have been times when my in-ground VdB types are looking good in late winter and still seem to have a lot of surviving wood but then after late frosts they get killed back most of the way to the ground. My yard is in a frost pocket too, so that can't help. But the Nero 600m trees in the experiment didn't follow this trend - they looked like they experienced all the die back in December.

[jrdewhirst]

ncdabbler -- Nice work. This was a tough assignment. I think you are the only grower to complete it.

It's been >2 years since the OP, so I don't have any air layers of BM kk hanging around, but I'll start one for you as soon as the weather gets a little warmer. Maybe mid to late May. I should have something for you by August.

That's unless you happen to be driving through New England with a truck, in which case I'd give you a 5' tree.

[ncdabbler]

That's kind of you to offer, but there's no need to start a BM kk air layer for me. I already have way too many late figs that are stingy producers in Z7, including Preto which is probably the same thing. You've already sent me a Moscatel Preto cutting, and it's now a healthy tree growing like mad in spite of two large notches in the trunk from a rat that chewed on it during storage this past winter. Fortunately the rat liked other trees more, and only killed one tree that was destined for rootstock anyway before I finally found him and dispatched him. I don't need any more rewards, I just wanted to complete the experiment after a late start.

[jrdewhirst]

OK, but if you'd like something else that's early instead (Florea, RdB, IC, DTE, Teramo, Iranian Candy), you've earned it. Let me know.

[YATAMA]

Yeah, Ican donate incense passionfruit plnt if you like in month r so BMKK not doinfsowell herethis spring in NC forus heere.

[ncdabbler]

Thanks for the offer! I actually got that passionfruit in a trade from you a while back (for Conadria - sorry, I think I got the better end of that trade!). It's a nice passionfruit - better tasting than my other maypops although they look indistinguishable to me.

[YATAMA]

yes I freeze the fruits intact to process into beverages in winter.also dry laves foe geat tasting tea.

as to uneven freeze damage. here we see evenwith tomatoes( faster results) same variety 10 feeet from another may get frsted while other is untouched. Ithik cold air disperses unequally even on what looks like level areas. maybe some areas have underground rocls, clay etc that are heat sinks more thn the friable pure garden soil?whatever we live with wnaever Mother Nature has in store!our medical stuff included!

[YATAMA]

glad you liked my comment. nature does things on uneven basis. I'll spare you details on my health probs but it is constant mystery whymy eyesight is great one day or moment and then suddenly gets so bad cannot see what am typing well reading too! 50 years ago had to cancelflight training at last moment when eyesight went weird.If you cannot read instruments best to let someone else do the piloting! But why off and on prob with months of normalcy, then wham! samewith frost

[ncdabbler]

I was thinking the same thing with the frost we just had. Some plants had just one leaf frosted - who knows why that one leaf? Other trees were completely frosted. Some damage was at the top of the tree. Others were frosted at the bottom. Very mysterious! Sorry to hear about your eyesight going wonky all of the sudden, and I hope it doesn't happen too often. I've noticed the same type of thing with an acquaintance's dementia. Most of the time he doesn't remember much and has to ask the same question over and over, but every once in a while he has a really good day and can remember almost everything and can carry on perfectly normal conversations. Unfortunately those days are rare, but it makes me wonder about how his brain works and what's blocking it most of the time.