Improved Celeste

**pppldj** · 03-05-2015, 06:37 AM

All the figs out of LSU are hybrids. The O'Rourke and Champagne should be referred to as O'Rourke and Champagne even though they may be/are considered as improved. I know that they have been labeled as improved celeste and sold as such. I am in the belief that the LSU IC from JF&E fits the description of LSU IC and has become recognized as LSU IC and becoming more widely distributed. All may not agree with me. Much of this belief comes from the writings of Dan A. His descriptions of the leaves and fruiting characteristics fit the JF&E version. His description is what made me choose this as one of my first varieties here, at my new location.

**AscPete** · 03-05-2015, 07:51 AM

There has not been any confusion between the other cultivars other than possibly Champagne aka LSU Golden Celeste.

The common naming confusion is only between the improved Celeste hybrid and the O'Rourke due to a release document that referred to the O'Rourke as LSU's Improved Celeste (they also referred to Champagne as Golden Celeste). Many improved Celeste hybrids (several different cultivars) were in circulation for evaluation purposes and wound up in nurseries. They were erroneously given the new names, O'Rourke, Champagne and Tiger. http://www.lsu.edu/departments/horti...e/new_figs.pdf

Selected standard Celeste trees are labeled as "improved' due to some characteristics, ie larger figs and or setting a larger volume of figs, but the figs and trees still look like a standard Celeste.

The improved Celeste hybrid should be renamed, because its the only one that has ever caused any confusion. IC hybrid is an easy distinction and is also descriptive.
.

**eboone** · 03-05-2015, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by AscPete View Post

There has not been any confusion between the other cultivars other than possibly Champagne aka LSU Golden Celeste.

The common naming confusion is only between the improved Celeste hybrid and the O'Rourke due to a release document that referred to the O'Rourke as LSU's Improved Celeste (they also referred to Champagne as Golden Celeste). Many improved Celeste hybrids (several different cultivars) were in circulation for evaluation purposes and wound up in nurseries. They were erroneously given the new names, O'Rourke, Champagne and Tiger. http://www.lsu.edu/departments/horti...e/new_figs.pdf

I have read that there were several, not just one, descendants of Celeste bred at the LSU program, which were passed around to outside people for evaluation or surreptitiously taken from the LSU tests fields by those interested back before most of these 'named' varieties were released. Dr. O'Rourke's goal was to improve Celeste, and some of these other varieties also got called 'improved Celeste' as well.

**AscPete** · 03-05-2015, 09:02 AM

Ed,
Yes, according to anecdotal info, many of the most promising hybrids were released for "evaluation".
Which actually means that there are several different IC Hybrids in circulation at this time.
I'm currently trialing two (2) different IC Hybrids from 2 different sources.

**greenfig** · 03-05-2015, 11:14 AM

...The LSU breeding program developed (at least) 3 improved Celeste varieties: O'Rourke, Champagne (Golden Celeste), and Improved Celeste. As I understand it, Improved Celeste has not been officially released like the other two. Because of this, I don't think it should have LSU in the name?....

I have all 3 with Improved Celeste acquired from Herman2. They are all very good, prolific, but different . GC is the most vigorous but the O'Rourke is a bit tastier. I would recommend any of them!

**PA Figs** · 03-05-2015, 06:47 PM

My Improved Celeste from Petals from the Past. It is my earliest ripening fig in a container.

**Billy** · 03-05-2015, 07:33 PM

Thoughts on Mega Celeste too, please. If it isn't in the 'improved' category, is it just a certain strain of regular Celeste?

Regards,
billy

**Wisner** · 03-05-2015, 08:37 PM

Giant Celeste is what people were calling the LSU Tiger fig before LSU officially named it. The Mega Celeste from what I've read is not even a Celeste fig.

**drphil69** · 03-05-2015, 10:39 PM

Reading all this naming stuff gives me a headache...

**AscPete** · 03-06-2015, 06:45 AM

Kelby,

The LSU breeding program developed (at least) 3 improved Celeste varieties

The program bred Celeste hybrids and called only one (1) Improved Celeste.

O'Rourke has been mislabeled as Improved Celeste

Officially O'Rourke is the LSU Improved Celeste.

Unofficial improved Celeste Hybrids were renamed O'Rourke erroneously.

Its really not confusing.

**paully22** · 03-06-2015, 10:01 AM

Am I right in stating we have the following Improved Celeste variants ---- O'Rourke, Tiger, Champagne and Improved Celeste.
I happen to have all these but I have not managed to sample Improved Celeste due many die backs and last season was my best shot
at it but forgot about its ripe figs due to over zealous in salmon fishing. Of the 3 others, my current favourite is O'Rourke. I thought I read
somewhere that Champagne(aka Golden Celeste) is Dr.O'Rourke's favourite. It seems there is more than 1 strain of LSU Champagne. This
group of new figs from LSU is interesting, all great figs though.

**mountainfigs** · 03-06-2015, 11:21 AM

Tried to post a new thread on the difference between O'Rourke and Improved Celeste - O'Rourke fig cultivar and Improved Celeste fig cultivar: what's the difference and why the confusion? - however it has too many photos to get past the filter. The many photos are necessary because the way they have been used has created a lot of the confusion. I examine the problems with the photos and the information at three very good plant nurseries: Almost Eden in Louisiana, Petals From The Past in Alabama, and Edible Landscaping in Virginia.

For now, I've only been able to post the write-up at my fig site:
http://mountainfigs.net/cultivars/or...nct-cultivars/

I've condensed the post below. Anyone who wants to see the full details and photos can follow the link:

O'Rourke and Improved Celeste: 2 Distinct Cultivars

O’Rourke and Improved Celeste are very different, distinct cultivars. Both are said to have come out of the LSU fig breeding program. If so, both are improved celeste hybrids; however, one, O’Rourke, was officially released by LSU, whereas the other cultivar, already known in commercial nurseries as Improved Celeste, was not officially released. I don’t know that LSU has even acknowledged its existence, except in passing. Nor do I know how Improved Celeste got its name or who first named it.

According to LSU, this is the O’Rourke fruit, below, though it may not be the most representative picture, since O’Rourke is said to have fruit that “tapers slightly toward the stem end with a long neck,” according to Dr. O’Rourke, et al:

The fruit pictured immediately below is Improved Celeste:
http://www.justfruitsandexotics.com/…d-celeste-fig/

Improved Celeste Fruit is more squat and often more red or purple. O’Rourke Fruit is more slender in appearance and often more brown.

The leaves of both cultivars are also totally different. O’Rourke leaves are commonly 5 lobed, whereas Improved Celeste leaves are commonly 3 lobed. For a more precise description of the very clear leaf differences see cajunfig’s post on the topic or note Kelby’s distinction: “any one lobed leaves = Improved Celeste; any 5 lobed leaves = O’Rourke.”

... ... ...

Given the significant differences between O’Rourke fruit and leaves and Improved Celeste fruit and leaves, why are these cultivars ever confused and conflated? Seems to be a ready explanation: Multiple very good commercial plant nurseries have mixed up these two cultivars, claimed them to be one and the same, and continue to unwittingly perpetuate the mistake.

.

.. ... ...

How did these nurseries get so confused? I have no reason to doubt cajunfig’s explanation:

“When LSU officially released their O’Rourke cultivar in 2007 several retail nurseries just changed the name of their Improved Celeste stock trees and/or their LSU Improved Celeste stock trees to the O’Rourke name.”

Why would they do this? I would guess because LSU itself had previously referred to the O’Rourke fig as Improved Celeste. O’Rourke is an improved Celeste hybrid but not the Improved Celeste cultivar that was already in commercial circulation when O’Rourke was released in 2007. Dr. O’Rourke, et al:

“‘O’Rourke’ is a common-type fig that is very productive and has performed well in grower trials and home orchards. This selection has previously been unofficially named and propagated as ‘Improved Celeste’; however, ‘Improved Celeste’ is not necessarily the same as ‘O’Rourke’.“

“Not necessarily” is by now completely misleading, since the cultivar that goes only by the name Improved Celeste (or Improved Celeste O’Rourke Not), when not mistakenly called O’Rourke, is not remotely the same cultivar as O’Rourke. A miscommunication of sorts apparently occurred and has self-perpetuated. (Possibly other people elsewhere, especially in Louisiana, are calling Improved Celeste by some other name but if so I’m not aware of it, of any local or other names that “Improved Celeste” may have been given or had originally.)

To my knowledge, cajunfigs first clarified the complete difference between O’Rourke and Improved Celeste several years ago in a series of posts:
http://cajunfigs.blogspot.com/2012/0…t-orourke.html
http://cajunfigs.blogspot.com/2012/0…-improved.html
http://cajunfigs.blogspot.com/2012/0…-improved.html
http://cajunfigs.blogspot.com/2012/0…sonis-lsu.html

There are a lot of pictures of Improved Celeste leaves and Improved Celeste fruit available online. And there are sufficient pictures of O’Rourke leaves online. However, it would help to see many more pictures of O’Rourke fruit. My Improved Celeste trees have produced fruit bountifully. My O’Rourke tree has produced only a handful of fruit thus far.

**greenfig** · 03-06-2015, 12:09 PM

Tony,
A nice write up . I would like to mention that caprified O'Rourke and IC look very different inside . They are much closer to dark red.
The leaf shapes are still different , with 5 fingers more common on O'Rourke

**Harborseal** · 03-06-2015, 01:54 PM

mountainfigs, You can post all the photos you want in a thread but only a few per post. If you split up the photos 3 or 4 to a post and continue in a new post they should show up without problems.

**mountainfigs** · 03-06-2015, 02:13 PM

Okay, here's much of the rest of the too-large post on O'Rourke and Improved Celeste. I was able to include some but not all of the photos. This is the part that focuses on the confusion found at the websites of various plant nurseries.

Pics of my O’Rourke leaves and O’Rourke fruit:

Improved Celeste, leaves and fruit, my pics:

Given the significant differences between O’Rourke fruit and leaves and Improved Celeste fruit and leaves, why are these cultivars ever confused and conflated? Seems to be a ready explanation: Multiple very good commercial plant nurseries have mixed up these two cultivars, claimed them to be one and the same, and continue to unwittingly perpetuate the mistake. Almost Eden nursery in Louisiana and Petals from the Past nursery in Alabama are two of the best nurseries to purchase fig trees from. I have many great fig trees purchased from both nurseries. Mistakes happen. Here are the mistakes they have made and/or are making with these two cultivars:

Almost Eden uses the following photos that appear to be Improved Celeste fruit on its O’Rourke page to sell what it claims to be O’Rourke trees:

The fruit above is “turbinate,” and that is how Almost Eden describes it. However Improved Celeste fruit is turbinate, not O’Rourke officially, which is said to have fruit that “tapers slightly toward the stem end with a long neck,”according to Dr. O’Rourke, et al.

Another point of confusion, directions on Almost Eden’s O’Rourke web page intended to assure viewers that AE has the true O’Rourke take viewers to a web page showing only the fruit and trees of Improved Celeste. This O’Rourke pagerefers viewers to this Improved Celeste pic page.

One longtime fig grower has noted that Almost Eden has shipped O’Rourke and Improved Celeste trees to him more-or-less interchangeably. This occurred either due to mislabeling or because AE remains confused about the difference.

Below is the Improved Celeste fruit that Almost Eden displays on its Improved Celeste page. After accounting for some lighting differences, it looks nearly identical to the supposedly O’Rourke fruit displayed on the O’Rourke page. From AE’s Improved Celeste Page:

For its part, Petals from the Past uses LSU’s photo of O’Rourke fruit to sell what it believes to be O’Rourke trees but which are actually Improved Celeste trees that it sent to me. Simultaneously, the nursery uses a photo of presumably its own Improved Celeste trees, which are the actual tree clones it sold to me, Improved Celeste, not O’Rourke:

Note, the tree on the left immediately above does not produce the fruit on the right immediately above, despite Petals from the Past’s juxtaposition of the two photos. The O’Rourke photo on the right is LSU’s photo, surely taken in Louisiana. The Improved Celeste photo on the left is presumably from the orchards of Petals from the Past in Alabama.

Making the confusion/conflation complete, Petals from the Past states: “O’Rourke often referred to as Improved ‘Celeste is a tan fig with good flavor.”

I have purchased a total of six so-called O’Rourke trees from Petals from the Past and they are all instead Improved Celeste trees producing nothing but of course Improved Celeste fruit. (I made the bulk purchase knowingly a couple years ago when I realized what PP was selling. I prefer Improved Celeste to O’Rourke though both are great cultivars. Improved Celeste is a very robust, plump, especially sweet and fast-ripening fig. It was great to be able to gift this wonderful cultivar to family and friends.)

I’ve purchased many trees from Almost Eden but not their so-called O’Rourke, so I don’t know what actual cultivar they typically ship under that name. It seems that they have both cultivars but confuse them in their online display and sometimes in shipping.

More recently, the good plant nursery Edible Landscaping is adding to the confusion. Its O’Rourke page displays the picture of Improved Celeste fruit and leaves:

Again, these are all good nurseries for figs, in my opinion, though their confusion on O’Rourke and Improved Celeste is considerable. If you want great fig trees at reasonable prices, you can scarcely do better than to buy from Almost Eden and Petals from the Past, also Edible Landscaping – just watch out for confusion with the Improved Celeste and O’Rourke cultivars.

JD · 03-10-2015, 03:54 PM

Good thread revisiting much of what has been written previously. Improved Celeste from JF&E is very good, early, two-cropped and prolific here in 8B.

**King Fig** · 03-31-2015, 02:13 AM

Mega Celeste was first introduced to the fig community by Herman2 ( real name initials are VS). It is not an LSU bred fig. This fig originated from a Lowe's store in New Jersey. Vasile give it the name "Mega Celeste" because to him it look like a very large Celeste Fig.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

**Kelby** · 03-31-2015, 06:28 AM

Dan, silly question, but I'd like your input on this since you are the LSU authority.

Does this variety (Improved Celeste) deserve the prefix "LSU" since it is not really known or acknowledged by the university? Or, since it is apparently a result of Dr. O'Rourke's breeding program should the prefix apply to indicate its origin?

**m5allen** · 03-31-2015, 08:34 AM

Is there a significant taste difference between IC and O'R?

**AscPete** · 04-01-2015, 09:53 PM

improved Celeste hybrid
aka IC-On (Improved Celeste O'Rourke not)

Zone / Region:
zone 6, Hudson Valley, NY USA

Cultural practice:
container grown, 5-1-1-1 potting mix, Espoma Garden-tone and MG All purpose fertilizers

Leaf descriptions:
1 - 3 lobed shallow sinuses, some 5 lobed aka 3-lobed with thumbs, one of the thickest leaved varieties.

Fig descriptions:
small to medium sized with a brown ribbed exterior. Amber flesh, amber to pink pulp. Jammy, moderately sweet with light cane syrup flavor and light seed crunch (small seeds). The figs ripen with good flavor even in cooler weather.

Growth habits:
Moderate growth of thick branches that lignify quickly resulting in an up right growth habit. The tree is very healthy with no visible signs of mosaic disease.

**Snaglpus** · 04-02-2015, 09:49 AM

Well well well...look who's back! Dan! What's up Dan? Long time no hear!

every year, this question about LSU figs come up. When I got my first LSU Improved Celeste, Dalton said it and O'Rourke were the same. Years later I learned they were not. Now, I do have the real O'Rourke and several Improved Celeste.

**hoosierbanana** · 04-02-2015, 04:33 PM

Just thought I should weigh in on the terminology used in this thread for clarity...

Tacking the word hybrid onto named LSU varieties is not proper. It implies that the plant is an unnamed seedling of the specific named LSU variety. For instance, O'Rourke hybrid describes a seedling resulting from a cross of O'Rourke. O'Rourke can be described as a Celeste hybrid, or an improved (not capitalized because it is not a name) Celeste to reflect it's parentage.

Fig trees with female mothers (sounds weird right?) are all guaranteed to be genetically heterozygous, which is synonymous with the term hybrid. Only attributing hybridization to varieties derived from controlled crosses ignores the natural reproduction method employed by figs, whether random or intentional a cross is a cross.

**AscPete** · 04-03-2015, 09:51 AM

Brent,
The Improved Celeste 1-3 lobed, aka IC-On, aka improved Celeste hybrid is actually an unnamed Celeste hybrid that's been in circulation without a name for more than 50 years. It would be great if it had a unique name, but that has not happened in almost 6 decades.

**hoosierbanana** · 04-03-2015, 11:02 AM

Pete, I am saying that the term "improved Celeste hybrid" is incorrect. It could be described as an improved Celeste, or as a Celeste hybrid. This forum is the only place on the internet where the exact term appears...

Improved Celeste

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