[Altadena Mara]

I ordered an "Improved Celeste" from Almost Eden back in February. Now I wonder what it really is. It arrived dormant, a little 6" stick with just a little green showing on the tip. It has shown no signs of growth at all in my sun room over the last few weeks while cuttings around it have grown by inches. The trees I ordered from Starks, Rolling River, or the Dave Wilson trees from the local nursery are all several feet tall, a few are branched or in the process of branching out, and have also leafed out nicely. The Strawberry Verte from a generous fig person has two little figs on it.
I must say i'm a little disappointed with Almost Eden's twig, whatever it is.

[AscPete]

My "Improved Celeste" from Almost Eden were all regular Celeste.
The dormant fig plants in 3 - 4 inch pots from AE were all root bound and needed to be bare rooted and up potted to gallon containers. Good Luck.

[Altadena Mara]

Thanks for your sharing your experience with Almost Eden's Improved Celeste. I planted my AE plant in a gallon container a week ago, but didn't bare root it. Should I have done that? It's still just sitting there. I don't remember it being root bound.
Jon posted that Celeste was one of his five favorites for this area and didn't drop figs here in "Fig Paradise". I'll see how it works out. A lot of people seem to like the regular Celeste.

[AscPete]

You're welcome.
I've found that bare rooting will result in faster healthier growth, especially when changing potting mixes or mediums.
The regular Celeste is also one of my favorites... its one of the sweetest fig cultivars. The major complaint from most is the small size but as a backyard grower, I'll just plant a few more trees.

[King Fig]

The KISS rule applied in this fig world.......

Hybrids....varieties that were propagated from hand pollinated fertilized seeds thereby providing new genes into the genetic pool. Both the male and female fig parents were specially chosen in an attempt to produce a better fig. Generally these are varieties that are still under evaluation. They generally have not been grown for many years and have their origins from the various fig breeding program. All of the O'Rourke "selections" that he chose for further study and evaluations are rightfully called hybrids.

Dan
Semper Fi-Cus

[King Fig]

There are four entirely different fig varieties in Louisiana that have been sold with the exact same name "Improved Celeste". Note that the "i" is capitalized. NO fig was ever given the name "improved Celeste". Just the facts folks.

[King Fig]

Much of the growing and fruiting characteristic listed above in the original post comes directly from my personal fig research work. I posted many years ago how to differentiate between O'Rourke and the "LSU Improved Celeste" fig BEFORE they fruited. I pissed off many people who I told that they had misnamed figs for sale. ......and peeps who purchased those same misnamed figs. Nurseries erroneous assumed that all "Improved Celeste" figs were the officially released O'Rourke fig. I was the guy who proved that they were not the same fig. And I developed a test to tell them apart by counting lobes. I go into more details on my fig Blog.

Dan
Semper Fi-Cus

[AscPete]

Dan,

I've referred to the IC hybrid in the past as 1-3 lobed IC per your old posts.

What would you recommend as an actual name for this fig cultivar?
Thanks.

[King Fig]

Yes.....I always use the LSU prefix to differentiate it from the others. It should be called "LSU Improved Celeste". LSU's dr. Johnson did not know the existence of this fig when he released the O'Rourke fig. I know this to be a fact. This fig was given to other fig lovers by Dr. O'Rourke himself for them to trial for him. Theses are two completely different sibling figs that positively came out of the breeding program. I know a lot more about this subject matter than I am able to reveal at this time. People have called me a liar and fabricator in the past when in fact they were the ones who were ignorant to these real facts.

Dan
Semper Fi-Cus

[AscPete]

Thanks for the reply...
After reading some of Herman2's and your older posts, the LSU IC was one of the first figs on my first "Wish List" along with some of the other LSU Hybrids.

[Altadena Mara]

So if we want to buy an Improved Celeste fig tree from a commercial nursery, the only way to do that is to order an O’Rourke tree from Petals from the Past nursery? They seem to ship to California. Their shipping costs more than the trees.

[paully22]

Unless you get it from one of the members where you are at least assured of
the variant.

[Wisner]

So if we want to buy an Improved Celeste fig tree from a commercial nursery, the only way to do that is to order an O’Rourke tree from Petals from the Past nursery? They seem to ship to California. Their shipping costs more than the trees.

I was at a nursery the other day and they had Improved Celeste from this location.
http://www.starnurserybellechasse.co...age/fig-trees/

[Wisner]

It shows $17.50 to ship to California or Louisiana. Plus I would have to pay $1.75 tax to Louisiana.

[pppldj]

Don't know what Plum Crazy Orchard and Nursery out of Baton Rouge is offering as Improved Celeste, but here is their website:
http://www.plumcrazynursery.com/Fini...tlistfigs.html

No state exclusions listed. They also carry Smith, Golden Celeste and others.

[Altadena Mara]

I was at a nursery the other day and they had Improved Celeste from this location.
http://www.starnurserybellechasse.co...age/fig-trees/

Thanks for the link. It's interesting that on their website the picture of LSU Purple is the same as that for Improved Celeste, only enlarged, cropped and flipped. I can see confusing Celeste and Improved Celeste, but LSU Purple ....?

[Altadena Mara]

Don't know what Plum Crazy Orchard and Nursery out of Baton Rouge is offering as Improved Celeste, but here is their website:
http://www.plumcrazynursery.com/Fini...tlistfigs.html

No state exclusions listed. They also carry Smith, Golden Celeste and others.

Thanks for the link. They also seem to give a choice between 4', 6', and 8' trees. They just have pictures of LSU Gold and Purple on their web page, so it's impossible to tell which improved Celeste it is.

[pppldj]

Contact them and ask about it's leaves and fruiting characteristics. I did this with JF&E almost 2 years ago and decided that they had the one that Dan described on his blog.

[Snaglpus]

It's hard to beleive folks are still questioning the different between these 2. You can't trust nursery pictures. Most are always wrong and the owner's of the nurseries don't care.

[AscPete]

Improved Celeste EL sold as O'Rourke by Edible Landscaping, this was the third fig harvested this season its mildly sweet with a light cane sugar flavor and mild seed crunch. The other pictured fig in an O'Rourke PP it was sweet with a light maple syrup flavor and moderate seed crunch, I've been harvesting O'Rourke figs each day for the past 3 days.

[smithmal]

I'm getting an O'Rourke from Petals from the Past (which I'm assuming is a IC-ON, but I guess the leaf structure will give away its ID right away). Pete, from your flavor write up above I'm getting the following:

IC-ON = light sugar cane flavor
O'Rourke = light maple syrup flavor

Do I have this right? Thanks.

[AscPete]

Yes, the leaves will give it away (they actually sent an O'Rourke for an ordered O'Rourke for my last order) and Yes to the flavors, both in the Sugar Flavor group.

[Richdel]

Soooo, if I wanted to purchase the LSU Improved Celeste, where would I go? I don't want to buy an O'Rourke with the knowledge that they will send me a LSU IC. It seems then when I get the wrong fig, I will deserve it b/c i was playing the guessing game. Make sense? Already have a Whole Foods LSU Purple that turned out to be a Celeste, Dropping figs like crazy...

Just want the real deal.

[mountainfigs]

To my knowledge, Petals from the Past doesn't sell O'Rourke. They say they do, but, no, they don't. In fact what they say is that they sell O'Rourke often referred to as Improved Celeste. Wrong. In fact, they sell Improved Celeste also mistakenly called O'Rourke, by them. They think they know what they are selling, but they don't in this case. Multiple people have confirmed this over several years. Petals from the Past is a great nursery, just a little confused on some specifics. Maybe things have changed there, but if so, no customer has reported any change, and the nursery has never corrected its mistaken web page on this. They sell an excellent Improved Celeste.

[Richdel]

Thanks, but I am still guessing and hoping. Was hoping there might be LSU IC listed somewhere, thats actually an LSU IC. How about JF&E? Do they carry the true LSU IC?

[AscPete]

If You're looking for a good Improved Celeste (hybrid) the Edible landscaping O'Rourke may be your best bet. Its performing great in its 2nd season of growth... http://ediblelandscaping.com/product...ORourkeFig.php Good Luck.

[Altadena Mara]

This is my "Improved Celeste PP Not O’Rourke". The first fig from it was unremarkable, a little sweetness but bland otherwise. It's sure to get better over time. I had to soak the trees with the heat wave we're having, so there's a little splitting on the ends.

[nunuorig]

Folks,

At the risk of being flamed, I'm going to provide documentation to my commentary, and hope you will keep an open mind. Improved Celeste IS the same thing as the O’Rourke. I saw Mountingfigs write up, and unfortunately, according to LSU Agricultural department, it is incorrect.

I just got off the phone with LSU Ag department who explicitly stated O’Rourke and Improved Celeste ARE the same thing. Then, she commented on how frequently this question comes up. I was then referred to their research website where one can do searches on the O'Rourke: http://www.lsu.edu/about/requestinfo.php

LSU released 3 figs at the same time: O'Rourke, Tiger, and Champaign. O'Rourke was released early and described as an improved Celeste, hence the name. When it was officially released with all 3, the improved Celeste was formally released under the name O'Rourke. No other variant was established between the Improved Celeste Fig release and the O'Rourke fig release. They are the same.

https://www.lsu.edu/departments/hort...e/new_figs.pdf
http://www.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdonly...FigsLOWRES.pdf

Both publications come from LSU's website, published by LSU.

If I'm missing something, please let me know!

Thanks.

[AscPete]

There is never any risk of being "Flamed" on this forum...

LSU did officially release those three cultivars and documentation refers to the Released O'Rourke as being the "Improved Celeste",

but 30 - 40 years earlier there were several cultivars "released for evaluation" and the cultivar that was then widely known as Improved Celeste was a fourth and different cultivar than the O'Rourke.

[eboone]

And unfortunately the spokesperson you talked with might be so far removed from this that they have no idea what really happened....

The story is that not one, but SEVERAL of the previously unofficially released varieties were recognized as an 'improved celeste', since that is what Dr O'Rourke's program was trying to do, create an improved version of the Celeste fig. Eventually that became a name, not a description.

[jrdewhirst]

I've got an "O'Rourke" that matches the descriptions of O'Rourke given above. I've also got an "Improved Celeste (O'Rourke Not)" that matches the descriptions of IC given above. They are clearly not the same variety.

I don't care so much whether LSU officially acknowledges the "paternity" of what we call "Improved Celeste." If we can all agree that there are two different varieties, we can call the one that isn't O'Rourke whatever we want. Improved Celeste with or without [O'Rourke Not] seems OK to me. Would you prefer "the fig formerly known as Improved Celeste"?

[nunuorig]

FROM LSU publications: "The new LSU fig, is sometimes known as Improved Celeste"
REFERENCE: Figs for Commercial and Home Production in Louisiana, LSU AgCenter Pub. 1529, 2007

Now if there was another fig that came about, and someone just started calling it "Improved Celeste", despite the name already being used as A.K.A. "Improved Celeste", then that is another fig. However, the O'Rourke is also called an Improved Celeste.

On a anecdotal note, Bob O'Rourke never released any of the figs, Charlie Johnson did. The school has a phone call out to Charlie Johnson (who is retired). The school will be calling me back in a few days to provide a clearer response and commentary on the leaf type.

<Update>
So LSU returned my call again with additional information from the man who actually released the fig, Dr. Charles Johnson:

O'Rourke is technically an Improved Celeste. However, frequently stores mix up the varieties sometimes purposely on inadvertently and have confused the matter tremendously. Also, stores may have purposely mixed up the variety to be in a rush to be the first to sell the fig tree. However, the Original O'Rourke, which IS an Improved Celeste has the following characteristics:

-The leaf has 5 Lobes.
-The lobes at the pedial (the lobes closest the stem that holds the leaf), overlap just a little.
-The Fruit, when looking at the pistolet (the part of the fruit that attaches the stem (and the stem attaches to the tree),should be significantly elongated.

Anything else, is NOT an O'Rourke aka Improved Celeste. If you have something that is 1 lobe or 3 lobes, and are calling it an improved celeste, that is incorrect.

MountainFig - I will provide you the names and contact numbers over PM for you to independently verify.

[mountainfigs]

Well, my account is correct, and it agrees with Ed and Joe and Pete, and does not disagree with what LSU states. As I noted to you in email, LSU is talking apples and others are talking oranges, and you are straddling the two takes. Nothing you add above refutes my account of the two very different figs, Improved Celeste and O'Rourke.

Go to the "O'Rourke Fig" document (bold emphasis added below):
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/.../45/5/826.full

‘O'Rourke’ is a common-type fig that is very productive and has performed well in grower trials and home orchards. This selection has previously been unofficially named and propagated as ‘Improved Celeste’; however, ‘Improved Celeste’ is not necessarily the same as ‘O'Rourke’.

Once again: Improved Celeste and O'Rourke are two very widespread and two very different fig varieties as grown and sold today. That LSU once called O'Rourke an "Improved Celeste" in trials before abandoning that label is beside the point, totally irrelevant, except perhaps in being one of the sources of confusion.

[fisherman]

I have the LSU Improved Celeste from JFE and it is as pictured on their website. Early, prolific and very nice tasting- probably an 8 or higher for most palates. This is a really good fig and belongs in everyone's collection in the South and probably elsewhere. But JFE lists all their figs as Out of Stock- hope they are not going out of business.

[COGardener]

They do that during the busy summer months, the only ship during the winter. So everything online shows out of stock because it is pick up at the nursery only.

[nunuorig]

Well, my account is correct, and it agrees with Ed and Joe and Pete, and does not disagree with what LSU states. As I noted to you in email, LSU is talking apples and others are talking oranges, and you are straddling the two takes. Nothing you add above refutes my account of the two very different figs, Improved Celeste and O'Rourke.

Go to the "O'Rourke Fig" document (bold emphasis added below):
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/.../45/5/826.full

‘O'Rourke’ is a common-type fig that is very productive and has performed well in grower trials and home orchards. This selection has previously been unofficially named and propagated as ‘Improved Celeste’; however, ‘Improved Celeste’ is not necessarily the same as ‘O'Rourke’.

Once again: Improved Celeste and O'Rourke are two very widespread and two very different fig varieties as grown and sold today. That LSU once called O'Rourke an "Improved Celeste" in trials before abandoning that label is beside the point, totally irrelevant, except perhaps in being one of the sources of confusion.

Tony,
You are anchoring on one line in a multiple page essay. If you look at the quote, it comes from Pyzner, J. (2005). I believe this one line is taken out of context, especially if you read Pyzner, J. (2005) Figs for commercial and home orchards in Louisiana (Louisiana State University Agricultural Center publication 1529). To elaborate on Pyzner, he is stating in regards to being an O'Rourke, the eye must be partially closed. That is it... He is referring to a traditional O'Rourke in the most strict sense, he is outlining what a perfect O'Rourke Fig is. In other words, If it does not look like a perfect O'Rourke fig, call it an Improved Celeste. However, the genetic structure, the dna sequence, is exactly the same. He is being metaphoric.

Besides, if Charlie Johnson released the fig, why would you listen to a one liner from a reference of Pyzner?

The lobes of a TRUE improved celeste or O'Rourke, have the same leaf structure as noted above. I've provided you LSU's contact information and a point of contact for Dr. Johnson under private email. I also provided you my phone number. I hope you would kindly reach out to me so we can organize our questions and come off non-harassing. You can ask Dr. Johnson directly on this reference.

Best,
Mike

[mountainfigs]

Again, and at the risk of beating a dead horse:

No information that you or anyone else has provided contradicts what I've summarized here:

https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-h...243#post175243

We're talking apples and oranges, if you think that you and LSU really disagree with my basic claims.

You said it yourself - this is exactly what happened:

"Now if there was another fig that came about, and someone just started calling it "Improved Celeste", despite the name already being used as A.K.A. "Improved Celeste", then that is another fig."

Remember, LSU no longer refers to O'Rourke as "Improved Celeste." But many people refer to "another fig" as Improved Celeste (and they understand that it is not O'Rourke and never was meant to be thought of as O'Rourke).