Col de Dame fig varieties - Info Thread

[smithmal]

Did a quick search on the net, but I didn't come across any threads that discuss the Col de Dame fig family in general.

I've always been interested in understanding the origin/info of the Col de Dame fig family (abbreviated CdD). The following is what I've noted so far. Please correct me if any of the information is incorrect:

Col de Dame translates in French to "Neck/Collar of the Lady." I believe the CdD fig family originates from France, but most varieties in circulation were donated from Montserrat Pons i Boscana from Mallorca, Spain who owns an experimental fig orchard (Son Mut Nou: webpage) that is located on the Spanish Mediterranean island of Mallorca in the Marina of LlucMajor (West coast of Mallorca). This orchard is home to hundreds of varieties, many of which have grown in the land of his orchard for over 200 years.

According to my research, their are nine main varieties in th CdD family:

• CdD-Blanca (White)
• CdD-Blanca/Negra (White/Black) - tree that produces both white (light green) and black (purple) figs
• CdD-Bordissotenca (of or near Bordissot / Burjassot, Spain)
• CdD-Ciutat (City)
• CdD Gegantina (Giant)
• CdD-Grise/Brun (Grey)
• CdD-Noire/Negra (Black or Dark)
• CdD-Rimada (Striped/variegated)
• CdD-Roja/Rossa (Red/Rose)

The two tables below were estimated from Montserrat Pons' ripening data. The first table indicates the ripening order in days within the CdD family and comes directly from MP's data (CdD B-N is known as the earliest ripening of all CdD figs). The second table uses a specific ripening date from a fellow fig grower in the US and then, using MP's data estimates when the other members of the CdD family would ripen.



FAQs:

1. Do CdD varieties share a similar flavor profile?
   • According to the research I've seen, they all have a similar taste profile (sweet berry, crunchy, jammy taste)
2. Are specific CdD varieties known for their productivity?
   • Not sure about this, but see question 4 below
3. Which CdD varieties have breba crop?
   • Only CdD-N is noted for having a breba crop that will successfully ripen
4. Are there CdD vareities that are more "cold hardy" than others?
   • Herman2 indicated that all of his CdD varieties had similar taste but CdD-B had the best in ground productivity and was the most cold hardy

I'll update the OP as I learn more about this family, but any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Rimada is not a city in Spain, its a word for "striped." Which it is. A variegated fig.

[smithmal]

Thanks Rafael, I was a bit confused about that one. Couldn't seem to find a translation for that and the only thing that came up was a city in Spain so I assumed...

[WillsC]

Pons states that Roja and Rosa are synonyms

CDD Bordissotenca
CDD Ciutat
CDD Gegantina
CDD Negra

[Brian M]

This is from Monserrat. Grise is the same as brun btw.
CD CIUTAT
CD BLANCA
CD NEGRA
CD RIMADA
CD ROJA
CD BORDISSOTENCA
BLAVA c.
DE LASENYORA
ROJA
MANRRESA
MARTINENCA RIMADA

[smithmal]

Brian, I haven't heard of Blava, De Lasenyora, Manrresa and Martineca Rimada. Does MP indicate those varieties are in the CdD family?

[smithmal]

Anyone growing CdD-G and can report on it's ripening start date? Baud reports weight at 50-60g (http://www.fig-baud.com/cataloguefig...edamegris.html). NM; got some ripening data from a thread that Sas posted (http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox....-grise-6426086)

[smithmal]

In terms of fig ripening, is there a standard fig that all other figs are compared to for ripening times? I know for peaches everything is + (before) or - (after) the Redhaven peach. This makes life easy as you don't need to keep track of the date of ripening for each peach variety, you only need known when Redhaven ripens in your growing zone and then remember the +/- number for each variety to discover their ripening date.

[smithmal]

Tony,

Good to know. I like the mentality of choosing Celeste as the standard as it grows well across several growth zones and it is a good sugar fig to have in one's inventory. I shall be updating the table above once I get all the data to align with Celeste for zone 7. It would be really helpful if we start adopting this mentality across the board when reporting ripening times. Moreover VdB ripen date is pretty much in the middle of the growing season (late August for zone 6b). Celeste is pretty close as well (about a week earlier than VdB).

[mountainfigs]

Celeste is the fig LSU used principally in its propagation program so it makes sense for them to use it comparatively. Celeste has been a very difficult fig for me, the only cultivar I have that drops figs like crazy. I know I'm not alone in this dropping. By far the most reliable, easy cultivar for me is Mongibello aka Mt Etna by its many different names. And it first ripens about the same time every year. And I've seen commentary of it ripening well in all corners of the US. Violette de Bordeaux (also by its many different names) is also a very good standard, maybe the best because not only is it grown widely and reliably but in addition to its main crop it has a reliable breba crop that can be comparative to the breba crops of other cultivars.

[smithmal]

VdB is another good choice as many have it in their inventory. I'm not sure if VdB is a staple that you'd see across nurseries and online vendors like Celeste probably is. Personally I have the Celeste variety in my inventory, but will probably give it away b/c I'd rather grow IC-ON. VdB on the other hand is in my inventory and will definitely not be going anywhere. Sounds like this would be a good survey/poll question for forum members....

[Blackfoot12]

Ah that is genius! What fig ripens smack in the middle of the season?

[PA Figs]

Often, they fall into one of three categories - 60,90,120 days from formation of fig. There are a lot of dependencies though, with average temp per day, humidity, hrs of sunlight, etc etc. You can put a short season fig like Improved Celeste into 60 days and a long season fig like Black Madeira into 120days pretty safely, but there will always be those with perfect San Diego climates or harder Alaskan climates that will be exceptions.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Never heard of a fig in Alaska lol!!

[paully22]

Good thread. I knew they were a few cdd variants but this is the only thread that puts all together. Unfortunately they are late here in PNW. Definitely
green house help needed.

[smithmal]

Does anyone have Montserrat Pons' book "Las higueras de las Islas Baleares" and can translate the CdD ripening times that are listed in it? I was hoping to use that data to ballpark ripening times here in the US. I was going to make a chart and normalize all the ripening times to zone 7 (for example CdD-B for zone 7 (East Coast) is early September).

[smithmal]

Tony,

Excellent... so if we we put that list in order and make the first ripened variety (CdD-B/N) we get the following:
CdD-Blanca-Negra = day 0
CdD-Rosa/Roja = +8
CdD-Blanca = +10
CdD-Bordissotenca = +14
CdD-Negra/Noire = +15
CdD-Gegantina = +15
CdD-Rimada = +19
CdD-Ciutat = +39

Rewton has reported (https://www.figs4funforum.websitetoo...unt=20&forum=0) that his CdD-Blanca-Negra started ripening on August 20th (zone 7) so it he saw his ripening time delayed by 2 days. That being said, MP is growing his in ground in zone 9b while Rewton is growing his in containers in zone 7. Container growers tend to have faster ripening times vs. in ground has their trees wake up faster because their soil warms up faster.

Herman2 (zone 6b) has reported (http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox....ount=1&forum=0) that his CdD-B that is in ground ripens around the second week of September so if we do the math....

.......Variety..................Ripening Start Date............Ripening Start Date
....................................(In Ground; zone 6b)......(Container Grown; zone 7)
CdD-Blanca-Negra........August 27th.........................August 20th (reported)
CdD-Rosa/Roja...........September 4th.......................August 28th
CdD-Blanca.................September 12th (reported)....August 30th
CdD-Bordissotenca.....September 16th....................September 2nd
CdD-Negra/Noire.........September 17th....................September 3rd
CdD-Gegantina............September 17th....................September 3rd
CdD-Rimada................September 21st....................September 7th
CdD-Ciutat...................October 11th.........................September 27th

These are estimates of course. As an example Rewton posted that his CdD B-N started ripening on August 20th while his CdD-B and CdD-N ripening start date was significantly delayed by almost two weeks (September 10th) if you go be the theoretical date chart above. Still, I thought this would be interesting to note.

[mountainfigs]

A couple more:
Coll de Dama Bordissotenca -- / 1 sept - 14 oct 43 g
Coll de Dama de Ciutat -- / 26 sept - 4 nov 32 g

[smithmal]

Tony,

Thanks I update the chart above and the table in the OP

[Rafaelissimmo]

Hey Mal my thought is that the ripening times in Mallorca will not be the case just anywhere, you also need a "lodestar" ideal ripening location, eg San Diego. In any event the Blanca-Negra is said to ripen 15 days earlier than the others, wherever one may be! I will check his book, its on my coffee table. My personal opinion is that the other CdD variants take too long to ripen properly in ground unless you are in the 9-11 zones. The CdD Grise, which according to my research is derived from Baud nursery stock, seems to be the hardiest and may ripen earlier than the Noire and Blanc here in the US.

[smithmal]

Rafael thanks for looking this info up. Maybe I'm being too simplistic in my ripening estimation logic, but if fig variety A ripens on time "x" and fig variety B ripens on time "x + 14 days", wouldn't it be logical to assume that fig B would ripen 14 days later (or thereabouts) than fig A in any growth zone? As long as you have data for fig A in your growth zone, you could estimate when fig B would ripen (and fig C, D, E, etc. if you had that data compared to fig A as well). I know this mentality is practiced for peaches (and apples I think)....

Can you check on each varieties standard fig weight as well? I'd like to confirm the weights noted in my table above.

Also interesting to hear your experience with Grise. I've also read that Grise is the best tasting CdD of all varieties but was concerned as other have noted that it's growth and maturity is very slow (like all CdD). I've also read that most individuals that have CdD-B obtained it from UCD and it is riddled with FMV causing it to be very difficult to root and growth is highly stunted (per HarveyC info).

[Rafaelissimmo]

Malcolm, in all fairness, some people do report normal growth on their UCD-Blanc variants. Also, it should be made clear that many people have CdD Noir from UCD, which may also carry fmv. As is the case with the Blanc, far fewer people are growing the Baud strain. Finally, I would point out that many of the Mallorcan figs from Mr Pons appear to carry some fmv, but as Wills pointed out, it is not the particularly virulent fmv that seems to come out of California.

[Brian M]

The CCDB that I obtained from UC Davis has been extremely slow growing. However my CDDB from Mr. Pons has been aggressive from the get go. Also Grise seems to be the most vigorous grower out of the CDD family.

[Brian M]

Tree is growing rapidly now.

[quackmaster]

This is out of Mr Pons ' book to show that these are in the cdd family and also gris and roja are Not the same from my understanding. The only ones that may be the same is gris and brun. I've read those threads as well, I don't know why they said that.

[smithmal]

I tried that as well. I find it hard to believe that someone named a fig after nothing... Bordissotenca might be someone's last name or location?

[mountainfigs]

Apparently, Bordissot is the same as Burjassot which is of or near Valencia, Spain, the Mediterranean city. Bordissot is quite close to the Valencian pronounciation of Burjassot. I would guess that Bordissotenca simply means of or near Bordissot / Burjassot.

[smithmal]

Tony, this answer sounds good to me. I'll update the OP..

[Rewton]

The CdDB-N from MP has been one of my more robust growers in a container. It is clearly related to the CdD family but seems to be a bit different from the CdDB/CdDG/CdDN family members. While the others would be difficult to ripen here in zone 7, I think CdDB-N may do well in the ground here.

[smithmal]

Steve, I know that you posted on F4F that your CdD showed the following ripening times last year (zone 7): https://www.figs4funforum.websitetoo...unt=20&forum=0

"The CdDB-N first started ripening on Aug. 20 while the CdDB and CdDN started on Sept. 10."

If I understand your post correctly last year was your first year of getting figs from your CdD trees correct?

[Rewton]

Yes. I'm looking forward to much more fruit this year.

[Harborseal]

I don't think figs will fit in a timeline schema. Some years my Celestes ripen in July, some in August and some years none ripen. I have at least 3 producing Celestes and they may ripen at similar times or 1 may ripen early and another other late. I have F Pretos and Longue d'Aouts that do the same. 1 is early, one is mid and 1 is later. OTOH, all my Hardy Chicagos tend to overlap in ripening whether in pot or in ground and from various sources.

[AscPete]

I've nothing to add to the CdD discussions but believe that figs do follow two basic rules (timelines)...
The 30-60-90 day Ripening Rule and the Average daily temperatures which are independent of the "month" or "zone".

The "30-60-90-120 rule".
Simply stated once embryonic figs are visible "match head to rice grained sized" they will ripen as follows...
~ 30 days to swell from rice sized to stagnant stage.
~ 60 days to ripen for early cultivars, (45 - 60 days at stagnant stage)
~ 90 days to ripen for late cultivars, (75 - 90 days at stagnant stage)
~ 90 - 120 days total for Early to Late ripening from embryo stage.

from http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/15714/PDF ,

Breba Figs production; minimum winter temperature of 25*F
Stage I ... Spring growth to quiescence (stagnant stage or stage II), 7 - 8 weeks
Stage II ... Quiescence stage 2 weeks.
Stage III ... Ripening 2 weeks.
(academic clarification to the discussed 30-60-90 days fig ripening rule of thumb)

Main Crop Fig production; minimum winter temperature of 25*F with severe die back below 15*F
Stage I ... Rapid growth to quiescence (stagnant stage or stage II), 5 - 6 weeks
Stage II ... Quiescence stage 3 - 8 weeks (depending on the fig variety)
Stage III ... Ripening 3 - 5 weeks.
(academic clarification to the discussed 30-60-90 days fig ripening rule of thumb)

Fig trees will go dormant with continuous temperatures below 40*F, wake / break dormancy with sustained temperatures above 45*F and they have a low chilling requirement

The second is the "minimum daily average temperatures needed to properly ripen figs".
Simply stated the average temperature within a 24 hour period (night and day) should be greater than a minimum of 70 deg F for a fig to develop an acceptably ripe (jammy, translucent) interior. So with a night time average temperature of 60 deg F the day time temperatures should be at least 80 deg F for a properly ripened fig. They will also ripen faster when the average daily temperatures are warmer.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Malcolm, the CdD Blanca-Negra, as stated by Steve above, does seem to have a bit different shaped fruit than the other Col de Dames. Mine did not fruit last year but is already exploding in my greenhouse, I will post pics for sure. As for the fmv issue, I cannot say whether my Noir and Blanc cultivars are free of fmv or not, but they are both healthy growers and are sourced from Pierre Baud in France. I'd be happy to share cuttings after this season is over, I have two trees for each. What I did notice is that the fruit seems to take forever to ripen, and most of my containerized fruit lose their leaves or go dormant relatively early, say mid October. What that means is that I lost way too much fruit that simply went semi-rotten on the trees last autumn. My Baud trees pushed growth into mid september and then went dormant way too suddenly. This year I plan to pinch all fruit and all growth after early july. I'd rather have a smaller but fully ripened crop than lose half my crop due to my short season.

[smithmal]

Rafael,

That would be awesome. Seems to me that CdD cuttings/trees that originate from the UCD database should not be thought of as the standard in terms of growth and productivity due to FMV infection. We should try as a fig community to reduce the sharing of cuttings from trees that originate from the UCD stock since they seem to be so problematic. Speaking of which, if comfortable, those that have MP/Baud origin CdD trees should ID themselves so individuals wishing to obtain this variety know where to obtain a healthy source (rather than going through eBay, etc).

[smithmal]

Now that's interesting... Rewton indicated that his CdD-B-N started ripening at the end of August. Your in zone 7b which is slightly warmer than Rewton and you grow yours in a greenhouse to boot. When are you seeing the start of your CdD B-N ripening? According to MP, the ripening period for CdD B-N is about a month yet you still have figs maturing on your tree at the end of October.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Mal

Let me clarify something: i only give my CdD collection ( and other late figs) a head start in the greenhouse. Around May 1 st I move everything outside, greenhouses are breeding grounds for too many nasty critters. Also, my B-N has not borne fruit yet so I cannot answer your question.

[RIMike]

In regards to CdD Blanc, here's a picture from the greenhouse / high tunnel yesterday. I received this from UCD 2 years ago and was very slow to root. Things in the greenhouse are in fast forward vs everything else in this zone.

Could these be Breba? If so, it contradicts the information above about it not producing Breba. Hard to tell without any leaves.

[RIMike]

Direct from Trees of Joy

"Fig trees bear an abundant crop starting mid August into fall, but many varieties also provide the grower with a bonus crop early in summer, this crop is called Breba. Breba (from the Spanish word Breva) is the fig produced on previous year’s wood. The breba crop varies from one variety to the other, some varieties produce a heavy crop of brebas, some only a few, and will only produce the main crop."

There is no new growth on this tree yet, which leads me to believe these would be Breba.

[Rafaelissimmo]

The fact that breba appear on your CdD does not make it a breba producer. The question is: can it ripen breba? The answer is clearly NO. I have never seen a CdD hold a breba. Mine are showing plenty of breba in the greenhouse. Never seen one ripen.

[smithmal]

MGG is reporting that his CdD-N's breba ripens during the 2nd week of July (his are container grown; zone 7; http://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-ho...-ripening-list)

[WillsC]

The CCDB that I obtained from UC Davis has been extremely slow growing. However my CDDB from Mr. Pons has been aggressive from the get go. Also Grise seems to be the most vigorous grower out of the CDD family.

That is why I try to limit the figs I get from CA, no offense to those in CA or those sellers that reside in CA. They seem to have a nasty strain of FMV out there and if you can get the plants from a non CA source they just do better and the further south the person is in CA the worse it seems to be. BUT from some in CA I have had excellent results. If you have a plant and it struggles it seems to be a better idea to simply get a new one as it is faster and easier than trying to get a reluctant grower to take off. Those that roar from the start tend to continue that way and those that struggle tend to keep struggling.

[smithmal]

I totally agree. From my understanding of FMV vs tree productivity, generally FMV infection doesn't result in dramatic reduction in growth or productivity. In the case of CdD varieties, FMV infection is much more problematic. That being said, it's possible that FMV infection could reduce a variety's cold hardiness incurring more frost damage than non-FMV infected variants. I don't think I've ever seen any information that compares the extent of winter damage for identical varieties that are +FMV vs. -FMV.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Malcolm

I should also point out many folks grow CdD Blanc and Noir sourced from Belleclare. I should point out these may have come from UCD but it would be difficult to determine since Belleclare is defunct for 10 years now.

[smithmal]

I'm currently growing CdD-N but am unsure of where the individual that I got the cuttings from, got his cuttings/tree. If its origin is a UCD variety, how soon would I be able to detect FMV on it? Evidently not all FMV is created the same. I'm assuming if my CdD-N grows as vigorously as my other cuttings, then if it has FMV, its type would not be of a particularly virulent/harmful strain. Does that logic make sense? Just wondering if there's anyway to determine in the short run if my CdD-N is worth continued growth or should I cut my loses and obtain cuttings from a known healthy source.

[Rafaelissimmo]

Yes Malcolm your logic does make sense

[smithmal]

Just wondering, is there anything else people would like to see listed on the OP table or language? I'm really pleased at all the great info people have been providing for this thread. The accumulation of all of this info regarding the CdD family should be very helpful to anyone wanting to gain more knowledge on this wonderful fig family. I'm thinking of adding an estimated ripening order table to the OP.

[BrooklynMatty]

Looks good so far, great job.

Just wondering where you got the growth habits of some of the varieties? I think the mention of potential slow growth habits can be noted on certain strains of CDDBlanc and CDDNoir as Rafael stated due to UCD source. But some of the other varieties are not grown by many and could potentially have vigorous growth, unless this information was directly from Pons. You might want to put unknown for some the varieties unless some people can attest for it, since its really dependent on the growers climate/choice of medium, etc.

[smithmal]

BrooklynMatty,

Good point. I read in the forums that the CdD family in general is one of the slower growing varieties and take some years to mature before "hitting their stride." That being said, I've learned an awful lot about issues with FMV, origin of sources from feedback in this thread so maybe that mentality has changed... i also don't know if that information adds anything to the table as the rate of growth for any fig is highly dependent on numerous elements including:
1. Growth zone
2. Soil conditions
3. Fertilizers used
4. In Ground vs. Container growth vs. Greenhouse
5. FMV infection/origin of cutting/tree
6. Winter protection

Yadda, yadda, yadda. Feedback from this thread have suggested the following though:
A. The CdD family may be more susceptible to developmental stunting if infected with FMV vs. other fig varieties so choose the source of your cutting/tree wisely
B. Owners growing Grise/Brun and Noire/Negra have suggested that those varieties grow faster and produce better than others
C. CdD in general are not cold hardy and should be grown in ground in zones 9 or higher unless dedicated winter protection will occur

[PA Figs]

Great write up so far, love it! I'm getting a bit jealous though of all of the people having luck growing CdD as mine are some of my slowest growers.

[starch]

Nice writeup! My Col de Dame Grise is big enough that I might get some figs off it this year. Very excited!

[F. Bennett]

For those who have tasted CDD Gris, how does it rank in your collection? I'm rooting two cuttings now. They are my strongest cuttings this year, ironically.

[smithmal]

Frank that's good news! Do your cuttings originate from a Baud's tree? Just wondering if there's another source of CDD-G that is showing good growth. CDD-G is rising to the top of my list.