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  • Frank's Fig Unknown & Discussion of criteria for adding Unknowns to the Varieties List

    PREAMBLE: I posted this originally with the intent of adding a fig to the Varieties List. The title of the thread was originally "Frank's Fig Unknown" (And I had initially posted it in the Varieties List). It became a rather interesting broader discussion... about criteria that might be applied for adding unknowns to the Varieties Pages. Read on below (scroll down) for that discussion... it appears below the initial posts which are specifically about Frank's Fig Unknown.

    Frank's Fig Unknown

    Zone / Region: zone 5a / central NY state

    Cultural practice: Some in ground, some in pots of various sizes and soil compositions.

    Alternate name: Tentatively identified (by VS) as a strain of English Brown Turkey. Or at least, closely related. Sometimes referred to as "English Brown Turkey - Frank's Fig strain".

    Leaf descriptions: Dominant leaf is 5 lobed (3 real lobes plus small "thumbs"). Slightly rough texture to leaf.

    Fig descriptions: Makes breba plus main crop. Breba are small to medium sized, with long slender neck. Here it ripens the breba crop in July or August. Main crop is late and rarely ripens here (only in a good year). Breba is yellow/red/brown on exterior. Interior has white or yellow flesh surrounding light red pulp. Taste is sweet and full for the breba. Breba taste better than the main crop. Luckily this one makes lots of breba.

    Growth habits: Very vigorous and easy rooter. But a relatively slow grower. Quite cold hardy, with late bud break.

    History: Known lineage back to Buffalo NY, 1966. Probably brought from Sicily 2 generations prior.

    Photos by M. Ferro Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by Gina; 03-08-2015, 11:40 PM. Reason: Thread title changed at requst of original poster.
    Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

  • #2
    Additional Photos: (forum only allows a max of 10 photos per post)

    Photos by M. Ferro
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    Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi all,

      I've proposed that this be added to the Varieties pages. Any questions or comments about it? Anyone opposed? Anyone in support?

      You can post here, or also at
      http://www.ourfigs.com/forum/figs-ho...subforum/page2

      Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

      Comment


      • #4
        Full support Mike. It is very well documented with historical evidence and very nice photos. Sounds like a good fig for the southeast to complement the Celeste with some good Breba figs and a long enough ripening season to get a decent main crop,probably late September. Any cuttings of this variety available? I d like to buy a few and give it a try!

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Mike. The mods are discussing the guidelines for adding unknowns to the master list. But it's a weekend, and not everyone is around.

          Obviously there are many unknowns. Some have been desired (Unk Pastilliere for example) yet many others remain total unknowns or were just a made up name by someone who just found a fig growing in a park. Check out the unknowns on F4F. Most of those should never have been included and are only represented by a shriveled leaf and virtually no text. There should be a better mid-ground.

          If anyone has any suggestions for including unknowns, please feel free to chime in.
          SoCal, zone 10.
          www.ourfigs.com Invite your friends.

          Comment


          • #6
            Michael,

            Do you know of others growing this fig in different parts of the country? Any others growing it that have pictures on the leaves and fruit?
            Cutting sales on willsfigs.com started Nov 1 and will continue till about March 1.

            Comment


            • #7
              I would think that a fig like this one, observed and well documented, shared with others, and discussed by some of those with experience should be added. Not a fig that someone just found last week in a neighborhood. Maybe it should be grown and documented here by a couple members? That way others have had a chance to see it, maybe recognize something familiar?

              Frank B's Carini is an unknown but lots of forumers have grown it now. It ought to be in the list too. And AscPete's BryantDark. I don't see a downside if you set up a few ground rules like that. And if some year in the future one gets identified by DNA as a known variety, we can merge the files and list both names. I see an advantage in putting well documented info out there.

              *** especially these immigrant figs
              Last edited by eboone; 03-08-2015, 09:12 PM.
              Ed
              SW PA zone 6a

              Comment


              • #8
                Chris: thanks for your support. I sent you a private message about cuttings (would have used email, but couldn't figure out how to send you an email). And yes, it is a good variety for the southeast. My father gave a small tree of this to a fellow in Marietta, GA, back around the 1970's. It was planted there in ground. By the 1980's it was a large tree, making hundreds (maybe thousands) of ripe figs every year. The tree was thriving. I've lost touch with that family, but the tree is probably still going strong.

                Gina: thanks for explaining what's up. Here are a few thoughts that I think might be considered in your guidelines/criteria for whether to include or not. (And I offer these to "you collectively", as moderators, not merely to you alone :-). I do understand that you want to avoid the decisions being arbitrary or capricious. So a few thoughts for you:
                a. How well documented is it? (This should help weed out those cases such as you described where there's too little info)
                b. How much history is known of it?
                c. Is there evidence that there has been an honest attempt to identify it by matching it to a known cultivar? (This may help weed out those silly and possibly irresponsible cases, such as we have all seen too often on F4F)
                c'. Is there someone showing an ongoing sense of continued attempts to match it?
                d. Is it named appropriately, and consistently identified as unknown? (Yet with some consistency to its naming, and at least an apparent and unhidden attempt at avoiding the "name explosion" problem). (And has "unknown" either as suffix or prefix... I don't think you need to force it to be one or the other... after all some amount of creative leeway is an OK thing).
                d'. And does it avoid "masquerading"? By that I mean that it does not masquerade as some high priced "designer fig", in some attempt to try to generate market for selling it to unsuspecting dupes?
                e. Does it come from a "trusted member"? By this I mean is it proposed by somebody who has a history of meaningful contributions to this forum (and possibly other forums). (This is no doubt too subjective a criterion, but you guys probably have a reasonable sense of whether a user is an obvious troll or not... that's part of what makes you suitable as moderators, right?... and I was just looking for a criterion that would enable you to rule out troll-like crap without having to worry about appearing capricious).

                OK, those are my thoughts... I hope they're helpful. Undoubtedly at some level this becomes a little bit subjective, but you guys are moderators and probably have to apply some amount of subjective editorial decision from time to time anyway. As long as you remain open and willing to reconsider reasonable appeals, I think you needn't become overly formal in how you approach this sort of thing. Just my two cents worth.
                Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                Comment


                • #9
                  Aargh! I just spent a half hour writing some thoughts for you guys, and it seems that posting was lost! Not sure what happened... as soon as I clicked "post reply" it disappeared! And I can't seem to find it here anywhere now. (Darn). Here, I'll try writing it over, as well as I can remember it.


                  Chris: Thanks for your support. (I sent you a private message about cuttings... would prefer email, but couldn't figure out how to email you). And yes, this one does well in the Southeast. My father gave a tree of it to a fellow in Marietta, GA back around the 1970's. By the 1980's, it was a big tree (planted in ground), and producing hundreds (maybe thousands) of ripe figs every year. I've since lost touch with that family (when the father died 15 or 20 years ago), but the tree thrived there. So yes, it's a good one for the southeast.

                  Gina: Thanks for explaining what's up. I do have a few thoughts to share with you guys about possible guidelines / criterion. Obviously I can understand that you'd want to avoid seeming arbitrary or capricious in how you go about deciding what to include and what to reject. So guidelines might be helpful. Here are a few thoughts I have (man, I think I was more articulate on my first attempt at these... still bumming that that posting was lost!). Here are a few thoughts:
                  a. How well documented is it? (This should help weed out those cases you refer to, where there's just too little information).

                  b. How much history of it is known?

                  c. Is there evidence that reasonable attempts have been made at matching it with known cultivars? (This should help weed out the "name explosion" problem).
                  c'. And is there someone who is making responsible attempts to continue matching it? And at least some apparent "stewardship" to help with consistency in naming?

                  d. Is it appropriately named? (Does it have "unknown" as either a suffix or a prefix? I think you needn't require one or the other... just apply reasonable editorial thoughts to avoid gross, dirty, or profane names, yet allow for suffixing or prefixing. Appropriate editorial restraint will allow for some creative leeway).
                  d'. Does the name avoid "masquerading"? (e.g. is it proposed as "Ronde de Bourbonne"??, or worse yet, closer mimics of a desirable designer fig?)
                  d''. Does it seem to be part of an attempt to inflate prices to sell it to duped newbies? (No doubt a little subjective, but there have been some blatant examples by duplicitous people, and they weren't hard to spot).

                  e. Is it proposed by a "trusted member"? This is undoubtedly too subjective a criterion, but what I mean is, is it someone who has a history of making positive contributions to this forum (and possibly other fig forums as well)? (OK, like I said, way too subjective. BUT, the point here is that you want to weed out trolls, and you need some criterion to avoid looking too arbitrary and capricious. But you guys as moderators have to be used to the notion that you make some decisions that are somewhat subjective. That's part of the credentials/characteristics that you need as moderators, right? You no doubt have some reasonable sense of how you recognize troll-like behavior, and so I think you needn't be overly formal about how you do this. As long as you moderators remain open, communicative, and stay open to some reasonable appeal capability for those inevitable mistakes, then you needn't become too rule-bound, imo. Back on F4F there were some people who were pretty irresponsible about names in general... and while some guidelines/criteria may be helpful, you shouldn't ever get so bound up in "consistency" that you allow some irresponsible troll-like actions, nor clamp down on responsible stewardship attempts. Just my two cents worth.


                  OK, those are my thoughts. I hope they're helpful to you moderators. Maybe more in a minute... I want to get this posted before it disappears again! (still wish I could find the older version in that "autosaved" place).
                  Last edited by MichaelTucson; 03-08-2015, 09:48 PM. Reason: Just formatting for readability.
                  Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                  Comment


                  • MichaelTucson
                    MichaelTucson commented
                    Editing a comment
                    As an aside here... does any of you know where this "your post has been auto-saved" feature is saving the copies to?

                  • MichaelTucson
                    MichaelTucson commented
                    Editing a comment
                    hmmm... it "reappeared" below! How did you do that, Wills?

                • #10
                  Chris: thanks for your support. I sent you a private message about cuttings (would have used email, but couldn't figure out how to send you an email). And yes, it is a good variety for the southeast. My father gave a small tree of this to a fellow in Marietta, GA, back around the 1970's. It was planted there in ground. By the 1980's it was a large tree, making hundreds (maybe thousands) of ripe figs every year. The tree was thriving. I've lost touch with that family, but the tree is probably still going strong.

                  Gina: thanks for explaining what's up. Here are a few thoughts that I think might be considered in your guidelines/criteria for whether to include or not. (And I offer these to "you collectively", as moderators, not merely to you alone :-). I do understand that you want to avoid the decisions being arbitrary or capricious. So a few thoughts for you:
                  a. How well documented is it? (This should help weed out those cases such as you described where there's too little info)
                  b. How much history is known of it?
                  c. Is there evidence that there has been an honest attempt to identify it by matching it to a known cultivar? (This may help weed out those silly and possibly irresponsible cases, such as we have all seen too often on F4F)
                  c'. Is there someone showing an ongoing sense of continued attempts to match it?
                  d. Is it named appropriately, and consistently identified as unknown? (Yet with some consistency to its naming, and at least an apparent and unhidden attempt at avoiding the "name explosion" problem). (And has "unknown" either as suffix or prefix... I don't think you need to force it to be one or the other... after all some amount of creative leeway is an OK thing).
                  d'. And does it avoid "masquerading"? By that I mean that it does not masquerade as some high priced "designer fig", in some attempt to try to generate market for selling it to unsuspecting dupes?
                  e. Does it come from a "trusted member"? By this I mean is it proposed by somebody who has a history of meaningful contributions to this forum (and possibly other forums). (This is no doubt too subjective a criterion, but you guys probably have a reasonable sense of whether a user is an obvious troll or not... that's part of what makes you suitable as moderators, right?... and I was just looking for a criterion that would enable you to rule out troll-like crap without having to worry about appearing capricious).
                  OK, those are my thoughts... I hope they're helpful. Undoubtedly at some level this becomes a little bit subjective, but you guys are moderators and probably have to apply some amount of subjective editorial decision from time to time anyway. As long as you remain open and willing to reconsider reasonable appeals, I think you needn't become overly formal in how you approach this sort of thing. Just my two cents worth.
                  Cutting sales on willsfigs.com started Nov 1 and will continue till about March 1.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by WillsC View Post
                    Michael,

                    Do you know of others growing this fig in different parts of the country? Any others growing it that have pictures on the leaves and fruit?

                    Wills, over the years, my father has given this one to lots of people in lots of places. But I don't have photos of any of those. It's being grown in Marietta, GA (very productive in ground tree there, but I've lost touch with that family). It's in Sarasota FL. It's in Clearwater FL. It's in Peoria AZ (outside of Phoenix). It's in Fiji. (A daughter of a neighbor was in the Peace Corps and took it there). It's in Cincinnati, OH. It was in Portland, OR, but that guy moved away from there and it was in-ground... I have no contact with whoever has that property now. And as noted elsewhere, it's in multiple locations in central NY state (Rochester, Batavia, and various others), in addition to Buffalo NY.

                    And since I joined F4F about three years ago, I've given cuttings to maybe 10 or 15 members on that forum... usually as part of a trade. (e.g. that young woman in Montana, others who sent me various varieties). When I sent back other cuttings to them, I often just included this one... I plan to continue that practice, as I'm interested that this one become known. I'm particularly interested to share cuttings with someone growing La Radek's strain of English Brown Turkey, as I've wondered about how similar/dissimilar this one is.

                    The trouble is, I don't have any photos from any of them. Actually, my dad has photos in Buffalo dating back to 1966, but they're "old film/print" photos... no electronic scans of them. By way of history, I know who my dad got his original tree from... that gentleman died some years back, but I've been in touch with his grandson who has shared with me which ancestor brought it over originally, from Sicily. (Not on Mt. Etna, just in case anyone asks).
                    Last edited by MichaelTucson; 03-09-2015, 12:59 PM. Reason: Edit: It is also in Alhambra, CA (near LA).
                    Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Mike, sometimes there is a delay in a post appearing. I've seen this several times when I can see 'from the outside' that someone has posted to a thread, but when I click on the thread, the message is not there... Yet. There is often a 10 minute delay for me to see the message that I know is there.
                      SoCal, zone 10.
                      www.ourfigs.com Invite your friends.

                      Comment


                      • MichaelTucson
                        MichaelTucson commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks Gina. That didn't seem to happen in this case, but I see that somehow Wills found the original out there somewhere in CyberForumLand. Whatever works!

                      • MichaelTucson
                        MichaelTucson commented
                        Editing a comment
                        OK, OK... I take that back. Now it DOES look at though that's what happened. I wonder if it's something to do with site-caching. Whatever the cause, it was mysterious. Thanks for the tip (and the affirmation that I'm not seeing things... though I HAVE seen a few other mysterious things in the varieties subforum, sort of the opposite of the case you mentioned... i.e. the post is there in a topic thread, but on the index page it shows as if not update was ever made. Must be a few glitches in the software infrastructure.

                        But again, in this one it looks like you were right... it was just "delayed".

                    • #13
                      Ed, thanks for your support on this. I like your thoughts about criterion (as well as your examples of a few others... I feel the same way about those ones, btw).

                      All: another thought I have about this topic: How many people would know of Hardy Chicago if not for a few well-known enthusiasts who "named" it thus? If it had been not publicized because of the enthusiasm surrounding it and its characteristics, how many would have 'discovered' it as Bensonhurst Purple or Merioun? I find myself falling on the side of avoiding the capricious explosion of renaming known cultivars, but when there is some real attempt at responsible stewardship and identification, I think it'd be a shame to clamp down too tightly. Being overly restrictive among a responsible community is (possibly?) just as undesirable as allowing uncontrolled renaming. Just food for thought.

                      Thoughts from others?
                      Last edited by MichaelTucson; 03-08-2015, 11:50 PM. Reason: typo... extraneous word.
                      Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Michael,

                        As i'm sure you know sometimes figs look different growing in a very dissimilar climate conditions and soil, that is why I wanted a picture of it from somewhere else. I think at a minimum that would be something I would want to see.
                        Cutting sales on willsfigs.com started Nov 1 and will continue till about March 1.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by MichaelTucson View Post
                          ...

                          Thoughts from others?
                          I think there might be more comments in a thread dedicated to this topic. Many people might be less interested in a thread with the title 'Frank's Fig Unknown'. No offense intended to the fig in question.


                          I agree that many figs whose names we do not question were given names by someone who found it somewhere. In some cases, the only difference is how many years have passed since it was named. St. Rita, Pan e vino dark, Black Beauty 10, Maltese Falcon,... and many more. Think of the naming contests at f4f.
                          Last edited by Gina; 03-08-2015, 10:20 PM.
                          SoCal, zone 10.
                          www.ourfigs.com Invite your friends.

                          Comment


                          • MichaelTucson
                            MichaelTucson commented
                            Editing a comment
                            You know Gina, the same thought crossed my mind. But isn't that part of what the "sticky" topic thread was intended to include? Pete's original "Please Read" posting there seemed to imply that, at least to my mind.

                            So if you want to spawn a new one (a new topic thread), I hope you can seed it with the discussion that's taken place here. (Maybe part of your moderator magic). Or, actually, I have an idea of a way to do that... if this forum software allows me to do it (as the originator of the first post in the thread), then I'll go retitle it, with an edit to the opening post to describe what it's about... I'll give that a try now. (Not sure if it'll allow me to retitle the thread though... guess I'll see. I know that works on F4F's software).
                            - Mike

                          • MichaelTucson
                            MichaelTucson commented
                            Editing a comment
                            OK Gina, I do agree. I just tried it, and though I could edit the first post in the thread, it wouldn't let me change the title. (It showed it but the field was protected... wouldn't let me edit). So... will you please retitle the thread? The title I would choose is:
                            Discussion of criteria for adding Unknowns to the Varieties List

                        • #16
                          Originally posted by WillsC View Post
                          Michael,

                          As i'm sure you know sometimes figs look different growing in a very dissimilar climate conditions and soil, that is why I wanted a picture of it from somewhere else. I think at a minimum that would be something I would want to see.

                          OK, well maybe some of the others who I've sent this to over the years will post some. I won't name them... they can jump in if they're willing.

                          Of course you're right that they can be dissimilar. This season I'll post some more photos from my own trees. Actually, I do have one photo (it's lower res, but still a digital image) from another grower locally here, which I'll post whenever I find it.

                          I am curious though why you think that should be part of the minimal requirements... photos from other locales. Why is that? Maybe you conceive of the varieties pages differently from how I'm assuming (and we all know about assuming, right?). Here's the thing: I view those pages as living/changing/updating pages. If they're to be viewed as "static", they'll become worthless. So, while it is already partially documented (and fairly widely distributed, lack of other digital posters notwithstanding), why not document it there, in the varieties pages? Isn't that what the varieties pages are for? These pages can become an aid in the whole process of establishing which ones <b>are</b> in the process of being sorted out. Lots of good reference sources are treated this way... you put responsible best-known information in them if it comes from reasonably responsible sources, and that way its visibility is enhanced for anyone who does have more to offer on that entry. It gets sorted out. Your pages can be part of that sorting out process. In my view, that enhances the value as a reference source... it helps to grow the community's knowledge, in addition to documenting something already accepted. You can tag the entries to help sort that out. (And in my opinion, that's the whole point of the "unknown" tag... maybe you'd want to formalize that as a tag? Sort of like a "still in investigation" tag?).

                          It's all part of why I've been contributing what I can, as time allows, to the other known varieties in your pages. (e.g. Battaglia Green, Aubique Petite/Petite Aubique, Peter's Honey (which has some of those nagging post-indexing issues), one or two others).

                          OK, I just reread that before I post it, and realized there's another possible issue here (i.e., do I meet your sense of a reasonably trusted source?... or am I more troll-like in your estimation?). :-) I'll leave that one to you and others :-)

                          But I really am interested to understand... why would that be part of your "at a minimum"? Do you view those pages as part of the vetting process for unknowns? (And allow for such cases to be appropriately "tagged"... i.e. with the "unknown" tag). Or do you view those pages as being solely for those which represent some decidedly-known-and-accepted varieties? (And if so, by what central authority? There is none, unless you assert yourselves as that central authority). If you want the latter, then I think that implies you should accept no unknowns, period. However I would encourage you to accept that this database can (in my view should) be part of the process of moving unknowns from unknown status to known status. Whether that "known status" results from it being positively matched to some other already-widely-accepted variety, or by its gradual acceptance as a new "known" variety in its own rite. Either way, I would strongly encourage you to find a way to let this be a living/breathing database which is part of the sorting out process for unknowns... less risk of it becoming moribund, in my view.

                          Sincerely,
                          Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                          Comment


                          • #17
                            Originally posted by Gina View Post

                            I think there might be more comments in a thread dedicated to this topic. Many people might be less interested in a thread with the title 'Frank's Fig Unknown'. No offense intended to the fig in question.
                            Gina, I agree. I prepared a preamble in the first post, but it wouldn't allow me to rename the topic thread. Can you (as moderator) please retitle this thread? (That way the discussion so far won't be lost to anyone else who wants to join it). The title that I would choose would be something like:

                            Discussion of criteria for adding Unknowns to the Varieties List
                            Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                            Comment


                            • #18

                              Looks like a very nice fig and unique looking to me. I have a lot of friends in Buffalo so I am a little based.

                              Looks like Michael has done a great job of documenting it, tracing the history, comparing it to known figs and widely distributing it.

                              When can the Unk. be dropped?
                              Pino, Niagara, Zone 6, WL; variegated figs, breba producers & suggestions welcome
                              Breba photos / Main crop fig photos
                              Canada Fig Growers

                              Comment


                              • #19
                                Thanks for your support (and nice comments), Pino.

                                As for dropping the "Unknown", I'm not really ready to suggest that yet. It's been recognized as closely related to English Brown Turkey, so I'm hoping to compare it more closely with the various known strains of that. (e.g. La Radek's).

                                But the question you pose is a good one... in some cases, it may be appropriate to drop "Unknown" at some point (For example, if Pete's Bryant Dark never gets id'd as matching some other cultivar, it might be appropriate to just drop "Unknown"). But in other cases, "Unknown" has become almost an essential part of the name (e.g. "Unknown Pastiliere" has become sort of a known name in itself... it's the accepted moniker for a fig that is really not a Pastiliere at all, but was at one point sold as such by someone who mislabeled it... there are now so many people who know it as "Unknown Pastiliere", that it'd be a shame to confuse the issue further by changing it again).

                                Good question that you pose!
                                Last edited by MichaelTucson; 03-08-2015, 11:45 PM. Reason: just clarifying.
                                Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

                                Comment


                                • Pino
                                  Pino commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Hi MIke
                                  Thanks for explaining, I am beginning to get it. Definitely see a need to have standards.

                              • #20
                                Originally posted by MichaelTucson View Post

                                Gina, I agree. I prepared a preamble in the first post, but it wouldn't allow me to rename the topic thread. Can you (as moderator) please retitle this thread? (That way the discussion so far won't be lost to anyone else who wants to join it). The title that I would choose would be something like:

                                Discussion of criteria for adding Unknowns to the Varieties List
                                Title change done.

                                Also, the message you posted that you thought was lost is post #8 in this thread.
                                SoCal, zone 10.
                                www.ourfigs.com Invite your friends.

                                Comment


                                • #21
                                  Originally posted by MichaelTucson View Post


                                  OK, well maybe some of the others who I've sent this to over the years will post some. I won't name them... they can jump in if they're willing.

                                  Of course you're right that they can be dissimilar. This season I'll post some more photos from my own trees. Actually, I do have one photo (it's lower res, but still a digital image) from another grower locally here, which I'll post whenever I find it.

                                  I am curious though why you think that should be part of the minimal requirements... photos from other locales. Why is that? Maybe you conceive of the varieties pages differently from how I'm assuming (and we all know about assuming, right?). Here's the thing: I view those pages as living/changing/updating pages. If they're to be viewed as "static", they'll become worthless. So, while it is already partially documented (and fairly widely distributed, lack of other digital posters notwithstanding), why not document it there, in the varieties pages? Isn't that what the varieties pages are for? These pages can become an aid in the whole process of establishing which ones <b>are</b> in the process of being sorted out. Lots of good reference sources are treated this way... you put responsible best-known information in them if it comes from reasonably responsible sources, and that way its visibility is enhanced for anyone who does have more to offer on that entry. It gets sorted out. Your pages can be part of that sorting out process. In my view, that enhances the value as a reference source... it helps to grow the community's knowledge, in addition to documenting something already accepted. You can tag the entries to help sort that out. (And in my opinion, that's the whole point of the "unknown" tag... maybe you'd want to formalize that as a tag? Sort of like a "still in investigation" tag?).

                                  It's all part of why I've been contributing what I can, as time allows, to the other known varieties in your pages. (e.g. Battaglia Green, Aubique Petite/Petite Aubique, Peter's Honey (which has some of those nagging post-indexing issues), one or two others).

                                  OK, I just reread that before I post it, and realized there's another possible issue here (i.e., do I meet your sense of a reasonably trusted source?... or am I more troll-like in your estimation?). :-) I'll leave that one to you and others :-)

                                  But I really am interested to understand... why would that be part of your "at a minimum"? Do you view those pages as part of the vetting process for unknowns? (And allow for such cases to be appropriately "tagged"... i.e. with the "unknown" tag). Or do you view those pages as being solely for those which represent some decidedly-known-and-accepted varieties? (And if so, by what central authority? There is none, unless you assert yourselves as that central authority). If you want the latter, then I think that implies you should accept no unknowns, period. However I would encourage you to accept that this database can (in my view should) be part of the process of moving unknowns from unknown status to known status. Whether that "known status" results from it being positively matched to some other already-widely-accepted variety, or by its gradual acceptance as a new "known" variety in its own rite. Either way, I would strongly encourage you to find a way to let this be a living/breathing database which is part of the sorting out process for unknowns... less risk of it becoming moribund, in my view.

                                  Sincerely,


                                  Michael,

                                  Understand that we are a young group so we are still feeling our way through these issues and trying to develop a process. Just trying to avoid as much as the naming confusion as is possible.

                                  The reason I would like to see a picture from a different region is simply to show it is unique and not just unique due to the area it is growing in.

                                  Definitely not a troll.

                                  What I want to avoid if at all possible is duplicates......as Herman said it is close to EBT.......what if the fig if growing in Ohio or CA or Georgia is exactly the same as EBT? Should it then be on the list just because the soil or weather conditions made it different in a certain location? You also have the issue that maybe your tree is different but clones of that tree look just like EBT should it be a new addition to the list? There has to be some sense of sanity to these fig names.......at some point an effort has to be made to gain some degree of control over the process and that is what we are trying to do here on this board.

                                  We also have the issue if a fig is just slightly different than a known cultivar is it included?

                                  Eventually we will have a group here on the board that will look at the figs and make those decisions but until then you will have to bear with us as we stumble our way through.....that seem fair to you?

                                  Wills
                                  Cutting sales on willsfigs.com started Nov 1 and will continue till about March 1.

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                                  • MichaelTucson
                                    MichaelTucson commented
                                    Editing a comment
                                    Of course it seems fair, Wills! I'm not impatient about this... just wanted to contribute my thoughts on the matter. I trust you guys to come up with a reasonable approach, whatever it may be. I like the notion that you're willing to have these kinds of discussions out in the open, so that ideas can be generated from anyone who cares to participate. Seems that "openness" is one of those characteristics that matters for an endeavor like this... kudos to you and your compadres in the forum game for taking that approach!

                                  • MichaelTucson
                                    MichaelTucson commented
                                    Editing a comment
                                    Oops... I didn't mean to "hide" this response by making it a comment rather than a new post with quote. Hopefully you'll see it here!

                                • #22
                                  Michael, very nice thread, its good to flesh out the criteria for unknowns. I have one question: who was Frank? I assume he was the man who brought the fig from Sicily to NY?
                                  Rafael
                                  Zone 7b, Queens, New York

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                                  • #23
                                    I have room in the south east.

                                    Just in case we need a thorough testing in South Carolina.



                                    Doug

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                                    • #24
                                      Originally posted by Rafaelissimmo View Post
                                      Michael, very nice thread, its good to flesh out the criteria for unknowns. I have one question: who was Frank? I assume he was the man who brought the fig from Sicily to NY?

                                      Thanks Rafael(issimmo). I'm glad you asked: Frank is my father. No, he isn't the person who brought it from Sicily. (His parents are from Calabria though). But he's the man who did more to propagate this specific variety to others than anyone else I know. He's been stalwart about keeping the fig tradition alive in the Buffalo area (a suburb), not only among his children and grandchildren, but their friends, his friends, and anyone willing to listen and give it a try. He introduced a lot of people to fresh figs, in a locale where getting fresh figs was a relative rarity. We've buried his trees in the fall (and exhumed them in the spring) since 1966. He's given cuttings of this tree to more people than I know of. (I mentioned some of the places they are and were, up above). Over the years, people in that circle just kind of naturally started referring to it as "Frank's fig tree", so the name was sort of a natural. I heard it said among his friends a lot when I was a kid and lived there ("hey, how's Frank's fig tree doing?", or "hey, let's go have some of Frank's figs"). It was given to him by a patient of his (Frank is a doctor), whose grandparents and/or parents probably brought it from Sicily when they came over here. I don't want to publicly identify the man who gave it to him, as that doesn't seem appropriate, but I know his name. He's long gone, alas. Unfortunately his descendants (those I've found anyway) don't seem to be into figs, though I'll offer again if/when I find any more of them. I did find one who spoke with me, and that's where I learned that earlier history.
                                      Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

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                                      • #25
                                        Doug, I'm sure the opportunity will arise.
                                        Mike -- central NY state, zone 5a -- pauca sed matura

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