Anyone from California want to send me some wasp laden profichi?

[Harborseal]

If you have any profichi with wasps I'd love to get some and I'd be happy to pay for them. PM me to let me know. Thanks!

[Bluemalibu]

Incoming, Bob...

[Brian M]

Doug you beat me lol

[bamafig]

How Does this work? The wasps will pollinate then die? Or does the winter weather take them out later?

[Bluemalibu]

These links may help you to understand the caprification process:

http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/pollinator-of-the-month/fig_wasp.shtml

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/pljune99.htm

http://www.figweb.org/Interaction/How_do_fig_wasps_pollinate/

[bie 14]

thank you
This really helped me too

[bamafig]

i understand the caprification process. i guess this is my question; how successfull is the process when performed in an area not native to the wasp? Is it as simple as you send wasp laden caprifig, I hang it in my tree and things get pollinated? Then next year you get another caprifig sent and do it again? If so, why dont more people do this or comment on their success with the process? If I had any open eyed figs I would love to try it myself.

[jmaler]

Do wasp need a growing climate that never freezes? Do they need tree that has figs year round?

Edit.....it helps to read. ok year round figs are called mamme figs.

What about freezes? Are there issues here?

[Jsacadura]

bamafig,

I don't have the wasp in my area. Last year i have collected lots of Smyrna fig types. So i need the wasp to pollinate them.

A friend has sent me a box with some Profichi (that are ripe in June) full of wasps and pollen. I hang them near my Smyrna figs. The wasps are forcing their way into the small figs ostiole but can't lay eggs inside.
Nevertheless, the female flowers of these young figs will get pollinated and they will grow and mature full of syrup and fertile seeds inside.

The wasps are also entering my young caprifigs (Mammoni crop) and here they can lay some eggs (these Mammoni are small but already receptive in June/July).
These eggs will produce new wasps that will leave in the fall (when this crops is mature) and lay eggs in the next crop of caprifigs - the Mamme. These will grow through winter and will stay in the leafless tree, providing shelter for the wasps larvae inside them.

If i am lucky they will survive the cold of my winter (worst years -5º C - 23º F) and will leave in the spring to lay eggs in the young Profichi. These will produce pollen in the male flowers (they are the only caprifig crop that has pollen) and the cycle restarts.

If they do not survive i will to do the same as Bob. Ask a good samaritan in a warmer zone to send me some Profichii every year for my Smyrnas - but it will be worth the effort.

Regarding your question - does it work outside an area native to wasp: - My friend says, Yes. I will confirm it myself in a couple of months.
The only two problems may be:
1. When your young Smyrna are receptive the warmer area doesn't have any Profichi left - they all matured earlier. Solution - get some Profichi from a not so warm area (they mature later) or from other later caprifig variety
2. Your colder area may not have a summer long enough and warm enough for the Smyrna figs to mature. Solution - choose Smyrna varieties that are early ripening (may not be so easy)

Some photos of the process in the next link.

[Jsacadura]

Some pollinated figs (Inchário Branco, Bebera Branca, Inchário Preto) from my friend who sent me the Profichi (totally worth the effort to be able to sample some of these figs)

Note - Bebera Branca is not a Smyrna, but also benefits from the pollination process. So i am also using some Profichi near my commons to see how they are affected by pollination.

[Bluemalibu]

Jerry, because the wasp winters-over within the caprifig mamme fruit, (the mamme is the winter crop of caprifigs.) any hard-freeze would kill the wasps off. We normally get just a handfull of 30-32* nights here each year, not cold enough to freeze the interior of the figs.

To answer bamafig's question about why we just don't send out wasp-laden figs to all parts of the country... allowing everyone to have the benefits of caprification; we could actually do more harm than good to do this. Along with the male fig's pollen, the wasps also carry fungi that cause endosepsis. (Internal fig rot) This, and over-pollination, could destroy your fruit crops. California law here limits each commercial grower to a single Caprifig tree, (or 1 1/2% of their orchard) in order to limit the damage caused by over-pollination. We are forbidden to have mamme and full-set profichi fruit on any tree at any time. And every single mamme fruit, on every tree must be treated with a fungicide.

The different caprifig strains actually differ in their number of wasp hatches. Some produce three crops of figs annually and others have four. The mamme ripens here in Northern California usually about March. (Feb this year, as it was 85* the first week of Feb here) To properly utilize the wasp, this mamme caprifig crop must be completely harvested and each mamme must be split open and treated with a fungicide. (Sprayed or dipped) The mamme are then suspended back into the tree to pollinate the profichi crop. It is this profichi crop that then pollinates the other fig trees, and allows the Smyrna and San Pedro to bring their fruit to full ripeness without being jettisoned. The mammone crop is the fall crop of caprifigs. It provides the link between generations of wasps, bridging the lineage between the profichi of spring/early summer, and the winter mamme crop.

I hope to have extra profichi for next spring to share with members, that have been pollinated with my fungicide-treated mamme.

Blue

[Jsacadura]

Hi Bluemalibu,

Thanks for enlighten us on some of the fine points of this wonderful natural process.

Regarding "Along with the male fig's pollen, the wasps also carry fungi that cause endosepsis. (Internal fig rot) This, and over-pollination, would destroy your fruit crops. California law here limits each commercial grower to a single Caprifig tree, (or 1 1/2% of their orchard) in order to limit the damage caused by over-pollination."

Can you tell us why this doesn't seem to happen in the areas where the wasp is endemic? For instance, in Algarve, caprifigs are quite frequent, the wasps are everywhere and i have no information that there is a problem with over-pollination (which can happen) or with internal fig rot (which is much more worrying).

[Harborseal]

What they said

I have a few figs that need the wasp and pollination to set fruit but also the fruit of common figs (that don't need the wasp) almost always taste better when pollinated. I'm growing a few caprifigs. They're not old enough to bear 3 crops yet but when they are I should have my own stable wasp population. I encourage everyone to do it. It enables you to breed figs, you get a crop from smyrnas and a second crop from San Pedros and even the common figs taste better. I make my garage Z9 so I don't have to worry about freezes.

Unfortunately so far the caprifigs seem to be very unwilling to grow in pots. They like to die suddenly without obvious reason.

[Bluemalibu]

That's good to know, Bob. I've spoken to several forum members that share your desire to winter-over the wasp in a heated greenhouse or garage. We'll have to share successful formulas to make it happen.


J- ,

I'd be the last one to ever say that I know it all. So, I certainly can't answer as to why you have found Portugal to be immune to these afflictions... The Algarve coast is simply gorgeous; so perhaps the fig fairy lives there and blesses it?

I am captivated by the natural world, so it would be great to perhaps one day learn why dozens of wasps might single out a single syconium causing it to burst, and leave the one beside it perfectly unmolested:





Portugal's immunity notwithstanding, endosepsis is a disease that the American, Greek, Turkish and Algerian fig industries continue to be plagued with. Without treatment of their mamme crops, farms were found to have experienced up to a 50% loss of their Smyrna harvest.

The wasp was not indigenous to California. It has been posited that the several species of Fusarium fungi responsible for endosepsis were imported from the Mediterranean with each of the winter mamme deliveries that were sent from the areas to which the wasp was endemic, when establishing the blastophaga here. The fungal infection and over-pollination was serious enough that it prompted passage of the only laws in California that I am aware of, which outlawed the possession of a certain variety of tree, unless the anti-fungal treatment that I described is performed religiously.

Blue

[Jsacadura]

Blue,

I sincerely thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and for the insight on the fig farming industry problems.

When the discussion enters the professional farming field I usually stop talking. Your needs are quite different from mine and other fruit enthusiasts. I just want a few figs for auto consumption.

But this time I will try to make my point, since you are advising people based on a professional premise that I think it’s unfair to apply to simple hobbyists.
I don’t think it’s entirely correct to advise weekend farmers using the same rules and necessities that apply to professional farming.

This “don’t do this at home. Leave it to the professionals” applies in many fields, but not necessarily in domestic farming. My needs are not the same as the professionals.

I will try to give you one example.

If I used the same rules in my domestic farming I would not have many of my varieties of apples, pears, peaches, and many others fruit varieties I grow in my small orchard.
Most of them have problems that affect the farming industry and which makes them reject these varieties.

The reasons are many. They are not very productive, they may be affected with some diseases and loose half the crop, they are not big enough, they don’t mature all at the same time, they are not resistant enough to machine manipulation – the list goes on, and on. I simply don’t care for most of these issues.

These problems don’t affect me. I pick from to tree to eat in the next few days. I care first and foremost about taste (which is one of the last concerns of the fruit industry), not looks and size.
Also, i don’t have to sell my fruits, so I don’t have to worry about perfect color or if they have spots on their skin.

I care about taste first. All the other considerations are important, like the need for spraying - I prefer the naturally resistant varieties. I will spray if I have too, but I try to avoid it if I can.
Conservation time is interesting but not determinant. I don’t need to put the fruit on the market before they are too mature, so I don’t need to pick it green also.

If I cared about all these industrial farming problems, I probably wouldn’t grow many of my best varieties, as they don’t cut it in the farmers market. Fortunately, I don’t have to.

So, returning to figs. I am discouraged to try and pollinate my Smyrna figs because of potential loss of crop to fungus disease and burst figs from over pollination.

Let me see. If I don’t pollinate my Smyrna figs I won’t have a crop. So, even if I lose 50% of my crop, I still have 50% more that if I don’t do it. I like those odds.

Regarding the issues of fig fungus disease and overpollination, I have some questions.

How many Smyrna fig varieties where tested regarding these problems? Are they all affected the same way so we can make a universal rule for fig pollination problems?
Do those problems affect the fig enthusiast in the same way as the professional so I can deter people from trying it?
I wonder.

The answer is probably not immediate and clear. As far as I know, in California the Smyrna crop is almost exclusively the Calimyrna variety.
When you select a Turkish variety (Sarilop), bring it to the USA, and plant it everywhere in big mono plantations of Calimyrna, you are probably asking for problems.
If there is a problem with this variety, it will affect all the trees because they are all clones and all have the same genetic heritage.
Acres and acres of the same variety with the same genetics tends to concentrate and intensify the problems that may arise.

I intend to have one tree each of the best fig varieties I can find from all over the world that adapt well to my area, and that includes some Smyrna varieties.
I don’t think that if I have Black Bursa, Zidi, Sarilop, Sari Zeibek, Blanca de Pasa, the wonderful Inchário Branco and Preto and many other Smyrnas they will all be affected the same way by pollination and encounter the same problems. We will see.

Nevertheless, if I have 20 Zidi Smyrna figs in a tree and the wasps concentrate on half of them and make them burst I will still have 10 mature and delicious figs I wouldn’t obtain any other way.
Pretty good in my book for an amateur “fig farmer”. And I can always try to reduce the amount of Caprifigs available to them, to try and minimize that problem.

Regarding our fig fairy in Portugal that makes us immune to the problems that industrial fig farming is facing, we probably have one.
It's the same one we used for hundreds and hundreds or years with our Smyrna and San Pedro varieties. It’s also the same used by the natural world everywhere and it’s called “Diversity”.

Unfortunately, the professional farming advice, rules and demand for more profit, are reducing this diversity and the small orchards in favor of very large single varieties industrial explorations.
The old farmers that where doing the traditional farming are dying. The old Smyrna varieties are disappearing, some are even cut down because they are “unproductive” or “too complicated” at the eyes of young farmers – some of these “farmers” don’t even know that pollination is needed for these varieties and they cut down the caprifigs, for useless as their figs are not edible.

These old Smyrna are being replaced by phartenogenic varieties, like Pingo de Mel, that are less complicated and cheaper to grow (so more profit for the farmer), although usually inferior in taste.

It’s a brave new world and probably unstoppable. In my small corner, I will try to preserve these wonderful Smyrna varieties, even if it includes trying to pollinate my figs the hard way, every year.

I appreciate your contribution to the discussion and sorry for the rant, but it’s a particular sensitive theme for me.

Regards,

[Harborseal]

Jsacadura, I agree with you on the problems of industrial Ag and monocropping. And of course the law was designed to benefit commercial farmers. Truth is, though, that one caprifig can infect an entire county and all neighboring counties. I'm not sure but I believe Bluemalibu has a small to medium sized collection and is not a professional farmer.

The law doesn't differentiate between small and large, commercial or private growers in this case and Ag inspectors have the power to order your entire collection burned if you don't follow the rules.

Plus it's nice of him to warn me about something I may not be aware of. If he just shipped the profichi without telling me and half my crop was infected he'd feel bad. So I don't think he's saying don't do it, he's warning me of a risk which enables me to take action. I can open the profichi and spray them if I want.

Bluemalibu, do you know what they use to treat the figs with? I can always spray them here.

[greenfig]

Bob,

It seems I am late for the party
Need more?
Btw, your Capri has figs now too

[COGardener]

I'm nowhere near as far along as Bob is, yet this is a path I would like to go down one day as well. This all good information and I'm glad I now have it.

[Bluemalibu]

Sorry that I'm a little late in responding... but getting the family to Sunday-go-to-meet'n took precedence.

J-,

I apologize for leaving you with the impression that I felt that caprification must be the exclusive domain of the commercial farms. I had intended to merely convey the message that wasp pollination is anything but benign... but by my attempting to shows its seriousness by citing the laws that regulate it, I came off as preachy. So again, for that I apologize.

Certainly, no one could fault a person for using the introduction of wasp-laden profichi to salvage 50% of their Smyrna crop, when the alternative is a total loss of said fruit. But what I was inferring, (and which Bob conveyed so much better than I), was that the poor old guy two houses down from you, which has enjoyed thirty years of yearly crops from his common figs, is going to be perfectly befuddled as to what he did differently this year to cause him to suddenly lose half of his figs to rot, and to have a few that grew three times their normal size and then exploded.

I have welcomed the opportunity to gather non-treated caprifigs from the wild here for those forum members that wanted to pollinate their Smyrna; common, and San Pedro figs. (The hillsides here are covered with volunteer caprifigs and seedlings.) But, with each person, I took the time to make sure that they were well versed on all of the ramifications.

In that same spirit, I would jump at the chance to share an AR15 or two (those evil black rifles) with a neighbor that desired to provide protection for their family, but couldn't afford the purchase of a firearm. And, likewise, I would take the time to instruct the family on the care and feeding (capabilities and safe use) of the firearm. Caprification holds just as many benefits and cautions.

Farming is a passion of mine rather than a business. Therefore I am not shackled to the demands of the market. Until my parents chose to shy from this labor of love, every generation of my family has tilled the soil since my 7th Great-grandfather stepped off of the Mayflower. I share your stand on the self-inflicted problems created by monoculture. My few hundred figs (none of which I have more than a half-dozen of any variety) are dispersed throughout my orchard. (Which is really more of a melting-pot rather than what one might picture when they envision an orchard) Other than the figs, the orchard is simply comprised of a couple dozen varieties each of citrus, pomegranates, stone fruit, pears, nuts, apples and a vineyard. Just one big fruit salad.

So, how about them figs...

Blue

[Hershell]

If I may, let me be the devils advocate or just the Trouble Maker. I understand the California laws restricting the number of Capri Figs a farmer might have but how do they enforce the wild population if Capri figs. I'm in the same boat as Bob and want to know before I do. I am growing Capri figs in ground in the greenhouses hoping to have a better chance of keeping some alive long term if this doesn't get too complicated.

[Harborseal]

It only applies to California. Caprifigs are invasive there also. Any place with freezes will kill off any stray caprifigs. From what I've seen they seem to be more sensitive to the cold than common figs. And more sensitive to drought. And sometimes they die to spite you.

Also, if you treat your batches of caprifigs before the wasps fly then there should be no fungus to introduce to your orchard. I'm trying to find out what they treat with. Where's HarveyC when you need him

[Bluemalibu]

Hershell, every land-owner is held responsible for the caprifigs that occupy their property. Most are indeed volunteer plants, but the State will send an order to destroy the trees that are going untreated, and then will step in to destroy them at the owner's expense. The trees on public property are likewise destroyed when the AG Dept is alerted to their presence by citizens that are affected by the trees.

[Bluemalibu]

Just for the record...

Rather than being against the use of profichi by cultivators, I am thankful beyond words to be so incredibly blessed as to live in one of the few places in the world that enjoys the influence of the fig wasp. There is simply no other reasonable way to be able to enjoy the potential that exists within our ficus without the wasp.

And, as with any other blessing... when much is given, much is expected. We have an obligation to utilize this asset responsibly. In my own feeble way, raising that cautionary voice was my sole objective.

Blue

[COGardener]

An interesting link.

http://www.invasive.org/browse/subinfo.cfm?sub=5641

[Harborseal]

Holy cow, figs produce zirconium! We've just cornered the fake diamond market. Who knew?

[Harborseal]

I notified them of the error and they thanked me, agreed that it was hilarious and have probably changed it by now, which is too bad

[Harborseal]

Also, since there are interested parties reading this, I'm going to tell a bit more about my plans so people can emulate or try different things. My theory is that the best time to ship a caprifig plant with wasp laden figs attached is in the fall. There are a few reasons. First, the cooler temps will help the tree not drop its figs during shipment. Second, the mamme are designed to survive the winter so they may be tougher than other crops. Third, the tree will come out of dormancy the same time as your other figs so their cycles will hopefully be synchronized. I will test this out this fall with one of our most skilled, kind and generous members

[Harborseal]

Also, I'm not worried about over pollination. I'll just mail a bunch of caprifigs to people who want them if I have too many. I'm going to grow as many caprifigs as I can. I want a long duration of profichis ripening at different times. So if anyone has a stray caprifig I'll be glad to take it. From reading it seems that Stanford, Roeding 3 and Milco will give you early, mid and late profichi crops. If they make all 3 crops every year they'd be enough to sustain your wasp colony but it turns out there are frequent failures of one of the crops here and there. So having a variety of other caprifigs will help stabilize the colony.

If you want to breed common figs you have to use pollen from persistent caprifigs. There aren't many known. Gillette, Saleeb (DFIC 10), Enderud (DFIC 8), DFIC 6 (UCR 347-1), possibly one of Aaron's caprifigs, Capri-Q (DFIC 126) and possibly Capri S (DFIC 127 - one out of 2 entries says it's persistent, the other one says it's not :- ) are the only ones I know of. There are undoubtedly many more in the wilds of California and the Mediterranean area but they're not known or not available. And it doesn't help that the CA dept of Ag kills as many as it can. There are private breeders with their own persistent caprifigs that they've bred but those aren't generally available, either.